RELIGION: A Diversion Away From Christ and His Gospel

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Seven times in Revelation 2 & 3 Jesus tells his seven symbolic congregations that he knows their works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)​

Hi Jamie,

Thanks for your thoughts. And thanks for showing me Matthew 16:27.

Apparently, God does accept our works and they are used to determine our reward.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

If God accepted the works and the obedience of sinners, which we are all one of. Then Christ died in vain.

Hi Robert,

Is there a verse that confirms that God does not accept the works and obedience of sinners?

Is there a verse that confirms that if God does accept our works/obedience then Christ died in vain?

Please share if there is.

If there isn't and you are just inferring that logically....that's cool. But could you please explain a little more? I'm not following your logic.

I think everyone will agree that Christ did not die in vain. But I don't see how God accepting our works and obedience would mean He did.

Why cannot Christ's death pay the debt of all of our sins AND God can still accept our works/obedience?

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

If you want your works accepted then they all are, good and bad. You can be judged under the law if you want to -

Romans 2:12 KJV -

Hi patrick jane,

Isn't there a difference between the "works of the law" and "good works" done in Christ?

In Romans 2, I think Paul is referring to the "works of the law".

In Matthew 16:27 (thanks to Jamie for finding it)it says that we are going to be rewarded according to our works. I don't think we have a choice right there. That is coming whether we like it or not.

Doesn't that mean that God does accept our good works and obedience?

He is going to use those to reward us, after all.

Doesn't that mean doing good works and obedience is something that we should be doing and that it is accepted by God?

Peace.

 

[patrick jane]

Hi patrick jane,

Isn't there a difference between the "works of the law" and "good works" done in Christ?

In Romans 2, I think Paul is referring to the "works of the law".

In Matthew 16:27 (thanks to Jamie for finding it)it says that we are going to be rewarded according to our works. I don't think we have a choice right there. That is coming whether we like it or not.

Doesn't that mean that God does accept our good works and obedience?

He is going to use those to reward us, after all.

Doesn't that mean doing good works and obedience is something that we should be doing and that it is accepted by God?

Peace.

I believe good works are a natural by-product of being saved and sealed -

Ephesians 1:13 KJV Ephesians 1:14 KJV -

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I believe good works are a natural by-product of being saved and sealed -

Ephesians 1:13 KJV Ephesians 1:14 KJV -

Cool. And God accepts those and uses them to determine our reward, right?

Peace.

 

[LightSon]

...
What does it mean to be "In Christ?" What it means is that you are trusting in His righteousness and in His atonement for your sins, Plus NOTHING. If you add anything to Christ and his Gospel it means that you are not trusting in Christ. It means that you are trusting in your religion.

It seems that you are arbitrarily defining religion in a way that makes it easy to dismiss. My religion is to, as you say, "[trust] in His righteousness and in His atonement for [my] sins, Plus NOTHING. "

The King James Bible uses "religion" 5 times by my account. James 1: 26,27 uses the word "religion" in a positive way, seemingly defining it. Have you factored this into your thinking?

 

[Robert Pate]

Hi Robert,

Is there a verse that confirms that God does not accept the works and obedience of sinners?

Is there a verse that confirms that if God does accept our works/obedience then Christ died in vain?

Please share if there is.

If there isn't and you are just inferring that logically....that's cool. But could you please explain a little more? I'm not following your logic.

I think everyone will agree that Christ did not die in vain. But I don't see how God accepting our works and obedience would mean He did.

Why cannot Christ's death pay the debt of all of our sins AND God can still accept our works/obedience?

Peace.

"For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith (not works) and not that of yourselves: It is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:8-10.

Whatever comes out of the Christians life is because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robert Pate]

It seems that you are arbitrarily defining religion in a way that makes it easy to dismiss. My religion is to, as you say, "[trust] in His righteousness and in His atonement for [my] sins, Plus NOTHING. "

The King James Bible uses "religion" 5 times by my account. James 1: 26,27 uses the word "religion" in a positive way, seemingly defining it. Have you factored this into your thinking?

My definition of religion is: Man's preoccupation with his own spirituality. It is the religion of me, myself and I. Religious people seldom talk about Christ. They are preoccupied with themselves.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

"For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved through faith (not works) and not that of yourselves: It is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:8-10.

Hi Robert,

The passage you quoted above says that we are saved by God's grace and not by works. Amen.

But it doesn't say that God doesn't accept the obedience or works of anyone. It just doesn't say that.

As a matter of fact, verse 10 says that God has ordained that we are created "unto good works" or "for good works".

Why did He ordain us for good works and why will Jesus reward us for good works....if God doesn't even accept them?

Whatever comes out of the Christians life is because he is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Ok. Perhaps here is where I can agree with you 100%. I agree with your above statement and I've even heard it been said that we cannot even ask the question "What must I do to be saved?" in the first place without God giving us the grace to ask it.

So perhaps you are referring to works and obedience that man tries to do APART from God's grace? That is the works and obedience that He doesn't accept? Is that what you are saying?

I agree with that.

I still think obedience and works are accepted by God, though. If they are done in Christ.

For example, Paul says in Phillipians 2:12: " Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

And in Galatians 5:6: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Peace to you.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

My definition of religion is: Man's preoccupation with his own spirituality. It is the religion of me, myself and I. Religious people seldom talk about Christ. They are preoccupied with themselves.

Hi Robert.

I asked you for a definition of religion a month or more ago. Here I see it.

Just my two cents here, but if that is your definition of religion, well....I believe that the vast majority of Christians are not religious by your definition.

Most Christians (that I know of, anyways) genuinely love Jesus, love God, love to read the Bible, try to lead a life that is pleasing to God, love their neighbors, care for the poor and hungry, etc. That goes for any denomination you can name, in my opinion. Lutherans, Methodists, non-denoms, Catholics, Presbyterians, and many others.

It's funny because I recently read a book that fits your description....a religion of me, myself, and I. I called it "spiritually narcissistic". And you are right. It was all about how I was given this special information that few people know about and that I am God, we all are God, there is no hell, there is no such thing as sin, etc.

It was written by a self-proclaimed "enlightened one" and basically speaks about the self-divinization of man.

It taught that evil doesn't exist, hell doesn't exist, sin doesn't exist.

I would probably categorize it as being very New Age with maybe some Gnosticism mixed in.

It was interesting for showing what some people today believe. But very spiritually dangerous.

God Bless.

 

[Robert Pate]

Bard

The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ is not preached or taught in today's organized church.

In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly by faith without works, Romans 4:5. In the organized church Jesus justifies those that have attained. In the Gospel God reconciles the world unto himself by Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:19. In the organized church Jesus only reconciles the church unto himself.

Organized religion wants to keep its members under the law so that it can control them and take their money. Organized religion and the Gospel are not compatible. Never have been, never will be.

 

[jamie]

Why did He ordain us for good works and why will Jesus reward us for good works....if God doesn't even accept them?

The Father not only accepts good works, Jesus insists on them.

I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

Lukewarm Christians make our Savior sick.

 

[jamie]

In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly by faith without works, Romans 4:5.

Yes, Robert, Jesus justifies the ungodly not by their ungodly works but by his grace so that with his Spirit they are able to do godly works instead of ungodly works. Who needs ungodly works? They are repulsive.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Father not only accepts good works, Jesus insists on them.

I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

Lukewarm Christians make our Savior sick.

All that have faith in Christ and his Gospel are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and are his.

The Laodicean church was blind to the Gospel and were preoccupied with materialism. Just like the organized church today.

 

[jamie]

The Laodicean church was blind to the Gospel and were preoccupied with materialism. Just like the organized church today.

In his letter to the seven symbolic congregations Jesus was addressing his organized groups and their problems.

 

[Robert Pate]

In his letter to the seven symbolic congregations Jesus was addressing his organized groups and their problems.

And what do you think Jesus would say to all of organized religions of today? None of which believes the Gospel.

 

[jamie]

And what do you think Jesus would say to all of organized religions of today? None of which believes the Gospel.

Jesus already said what he had to say.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard

The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ is not preached or taught in today's organized church.

Well, maybe or maybe not, I guess. I'm not sure what all you mean by the "Historical Gospel".

In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly by faith without works, Romans 4:5.

I know lots of organized churches that teach this today. (I am assuming by "organized" you mean "denominations").

In the organized church Jesus justifies those that have attained.

I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "have attained".

In the Gospel God reconciles the world unto himself by Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:19.

I know lots of organized churches that teach this today, too.

In the organized church Jesus only reconciles the church unto himself.

I'd have to look into that one.

Organized religion wants to keep its members under the law so that it can control them and take their money.

I really don't believe that that is true. I mean, How many people really feel "controlled" by their faith? People make decisions about what to believe through prayer, reading, etc. And as far as the money goes....well, I can't speak to all denominations but it seems to me that the really generous church-goers will tithe 10%. Some people maybe more. But statistically, depending on where you are in the world, alot of believers give less than 10% to their church. Like around 3 or 4 or maybe 5%. And most churches can do nothing if people who attend them say....Hey, I'm only gonna give 1%. or 0%. What can the church do about that.?

Hardly a recipe for control and wealth.

Organized religion and the Gospel are not compatible. Never have been, never will be.

[/QUOTE]

Really? Cause in the N.T. it looks an awful lot like Jesus' said that He was going to organize a religion...and then He did.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Father not only accepts good works, Jesus insists on them.

I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)​

Lukewarm Christians make our Savior sick.

Good point there, Jamie.

Thanks.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

And what do you think Jesus would say to all of organized religions of today? None of which believes the Gospel.

I have to disagree that no organized religions today believe the Gospel.

But it might depend on what you mean by "the Gospel". I'm not sure everyone means the same thing when they say that.

Could you tell me what you mean by "the Gospel"?

Peace.