Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination

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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
iouae said:
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".
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Right.

If God in the person of Jesus Christ only atoned for the sins of some and not the sins of all, he would be unjust. If he is unjust then he is a sinner just like us. If God is a sinner just like us, then you can't trust him.

Satan is very subtle in the way that he tries to destroy our faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Beware of Men" especially religious men.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
iouae said:
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".
Click to expand...

In what sense is God calling all?
 
NickCharles

NickCharles

New member
Robert Pate said:
Right.



If God in the person of Jesus Christ only atoned for the sins of some and not the sins of all, he would be unjust. If he is unjust then he is a sinner just like us. If God is a sinner just like us, then you can't trust him.



Satan is very subtle in the way that he tries to destroy our faith in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "Beware of Men" especially religious men.
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You've made the claim that it would be unjust if Christ only died for some. Please explain why that is unjust if nobody deserves to be saved.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Because, God "beseeches" us through the preaching of the Gospel. You understand what beseech means don't you?
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Paul is beesching only them that are saved already and reconciled to God already, that is not for lost person's in their sins! These people have no sins charged to them vs 19!
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
iouae said:
I agree with Robert that God is calling all, which is in line with "He will have all men to be saved".

That means He must have provided a means for all to be saved.

Or scripture would have read "He will have SOME men to be saved".

The fact that some are not saved means that God respects the concept of not dragging anyone into His kingdom kicking and screaming.

The very idea that He so prioritises freedom to choose, IMHO negates the idea of predestination.

Predestination is founded on the misinterpretation of one scripture, viz. that God "knoweth all things".
Click to expand...

Those God calls are predestinated are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:28-30!
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
beloved57 said:
Those God calls are predestinated are Justified and Glorified Rom 8:28-30!
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Predestination has been canceled out by the reconciliating work of Jesus Christ.

No one needs to be predestinated. God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19.
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Brother Ducky said:
In what sense is God calling all?
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He will have all men to be saved.
He predestined some to be called now as firstfruits to reign with Him during the millennium. These we call "Christians" today.

What do you believe concerning predestination?
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
NickCharles said:
You've made the claim that it would be unjust if Christ only died for some. Please explain why that is unjust if nobody deserves to be saved.
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It is not our fault that we are sinners. Its Adam's fault.

All are born into sin, Psalm 51:5.

We don't become sinners we are "MADE" sinners.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were "MADE" sinners" Romans 5:19.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
No you don't.

You have John Calvin the heretic.

If you had Jesus you would not need John Calvin the heretic.
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Since when did you believe in Jesus? You teach that millions upon millions for whom He died, shall wind up in hell lost in their sins in unbelief! That's not believing in Jesus!
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes. There are things pertaining to the future which don't involve man, and these God can predict perfectly, because He has total control over these.
4. Therefore there is no predestination of the spooky kind or 2nd kind when it comes to mankind, because each person has freedom to decide his own future.
5. God wills to have every person to be saved.
6. But God knows that this is a numbers game, and that some will not be saved.
7. Thus, knowing that some failure was inevitable, in advance, God prepared a hell where those who don't choose Him will be thrown into, and burn UP, not burn forever.
8. For those who choose Him, He is preparing a kingdom in heaven, which will eventually relocate to earth as the New Jerusalem.
9. The best kept secret in the Bible is the ratio of saved to lost. This will only be revealed at Christ's second coming and onwards.
10. "9" above is not even known exactly by God, since it depends on the choices folks make, right up to His 2nd coming. Choosing the "mark of the Beast" for instance will exclude you from His kingdom.
11. Or, God forbid, Christ is going to prepare a place for us, and there are only so many places in His kingdom, and then it's full. Only the best of the best up to that number make it into His kingdom. God does say that His Kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. This is like describing opening day at a sale. His saints have to storm His kingdom.

I have numbered this in case anyone wishes to say which points they do and do not agree with, so that we do not end up talking at cross purposes.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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iouae said:
Predestination is a complicated business. In point form I am summarising what I believe so that one does not end up bickering over things one actually is in agreement on.

1. God predicted certain things in advance, that He would make a world, and create mortals, and save them.
2. God can predict things because He has the power to make them come to pass (predestination of the 1st or non-spooky kind).
3. God cannot predict precise details of the future because the future will be decided in collaboration with the choices man makes.
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So with all this predicting you assume of God, you are an open theist type?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1535835#post1535835

AMR
 
iouae

iouae

Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
So with all this predicting you assume of God, you are an open theist type?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1535835#post1535835

AMR
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Thank you for making me look up what an "open theist" is.

Theopedia defines it as...
"Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen."

Wow - that is exactly what I believe.
 
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