Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

I have a idea, why don't you read my threads.

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Interesting words. So, if you were to believe that Jesus died for everyone, the result is quite different then your words on this thread.

Thank you for recommending that I go to your threads.

More to come.

So unbelievers are spiritually united with Christ??

Yes, those Christ died for. They are unbelievers until they hear the Truth.

Now if you mean unbelievers that are under condemnation and wrath as in Jn 3:18 and Jn 3:36 Then no they are not.

So now that I have answered your question, please deal with the points I made in the OP, show me if they are not accurate, and then show us how they are accurate, until then, do not evade the post again..

Excerpt from Link to B57's Thread

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[Nameless.In.Grace]

You got my answer.

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Core scripture of B57, used to refute that God died for everyone.

Matt 24:31

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does God have a elect people ? There is one scripture that says God's own elect. Lk 18:7

7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Is the fact that God has an election a theory of a man name calvin, or is it a scriptural truth ? I believe those who in unbelief and disdain, that shrug off election and other similar truth's of scripture as that of being the mere opinion of a man, will have much to answer for in the day of Judgment, which is not far away.

I will by God's Grace provide scriptural proof that election is the word of God, in that God, before the world began, made a distinction, a election among His creature man, choosing who would be objects of His special and peculiar Love and Favor. To begin lets look at a few verses of scripture.

Deut 7:6; Ps 135:4; Isa 41:8-9

Deut 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

What is truly amazing, is that most adversaries of the blessed Truth of election, have no problem receiving this Truth here in Deut, however they accept it as being applied to a carnal, natural people, Natural Israel, ethnic jews, but they reject the ideal of it applying to a Spiritual People, of all different ethnicities, having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I have news for you, the Chosen in Deut 7:6 are the same exact Chosen in Eph 1:4.

The Love God Loved them with in Deut 7:7

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

This is the same Love spoken of in Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God does not have different Love, its always grounded in His elective purpose in Christ Jesus per Rom 8:39

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now what makes us believe that this Love in Rom 8:39 is any different from the Love of God spoken of in Deut 7:7 ?

There is no difference, its the same Love, for the same People, just that in Rom the Love is found out to be of a wider dimension than first revealed in Deut 7:6-7. For God so loved the World in that same manner Nicodemus. Jn 3:16. Thats Jesus point in Jn 3:16, that God had a Chosen, special, peculiar, people unto Himself, above all other People upon the Face of the earth.

James describe them here Acts 15:

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

This is part of the same People God spoke to in Deut 7:6-7, but it was not known then, but they too are of the Seed of Abraham Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The Seed of Abraham, no matter what race or geographical location, are the Chosen or Elect of God.

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[Nameless.In.Grace]

You got my answer.

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Core scripture from B57 that premises that people that believe that God is a God of Freewill are condemned.

This is why I believe this is True !

2 Thess 2:1-4

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Isa 14:13-14

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Man's own freewill by far is the most believed and popular religious conviction throughout the whole world. Rev 13:1;5-8

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's adherents are linked to all the various denominations, and sects, yes, even the non religious adhere to man's freewill.

So John writes Rev 13:16

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That is all follow this deadly concept or philosophy of man's freewill !

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[Nameless.In.Grace]

You got my answer.

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I regret not checking people's OP's in discussion. This is very helpful. Thank you.


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[TulipBee]

Are we born guilty of sin and unable to not sin - and are some of these left in such a condition (ie reprobated)?

How can it be said that such folk have any option whatsoever to extricate themselves from their apparent inevitable fate? And how can it be argued that God isn't discriminatory?

fate?

 

[Rosenritter]

None of those scriptures says that they mean all mankind. That is what you are saying.

So you propose that it is saying that God only loves all the adult males?

 

[Rosenritter]

What does it mean if one is censored?

It means that the automatic profanity filter was automatically replacing words from King James quotations.

 

[Rosenritter]

I think I'm posting in the wrong area. Bear with me I'm new at this.

This area is as good as any other for that question I think.

 

[Rosenritter]

Neb could not reverse his decree. Sorry but that is how a decree works. It has to be satisfied. Who could only reverse it but GOD, someone greater than Neb, someone who could have killed him. Now, if God's decrees it, who can reverse it except someone greater than God? Is there anyone? Get the drift of the definition as to how serious it is?! NOTE: Even God honored Neb's decree. He satisfied it by sending someone Neb's viewed as "one like unto the soon of God".

Does that not speak of anything prophetic to you?



You aren't granting anything. A decree by God CANNOT be reversed!!!



And where is God decreeing anything in ANY of that?? Our being "dead in sins" is not a decree of God but a consequence of Adam's disobedience.




I am sorry but, I am NOT going through all of this again. If what I have just posited doesn't satisfy the issue for you, TOO bad.

OMT: This all is why the penalty for sin is so final that even God could not reverse without the penalty be paid by someone equal to Himself. I.e., only by sinless human flesh being there was no one of Adam's race to perform it. God had to make a way that did violate Himself [His edict] for it to be accomplished. Given us is the reason why for the birth of Jesus.

The king of Babylon did reverse his decree. He did not kill the wise men. Are you sure you read that passage?

That, and you totally lack proof for the rest of your statements. Man was decreed to die in the Garden of Eden, that decree is repeated in John and elsewhere. Jesus has offered to reverse that decree. Look up the meaning of the word decree. "Thou shalt surely die" is a decree.

 

[Rosenritter]

The trees were there for sustenance, and God had already thrown Lucifer down from his original dwelling, and thus the commandment was for their protection. But they disobeyed.

I do not assume Lucifer had already been cast down in Eden. The description in Ezekiel 28 makes it seem as if that being cast down happened later.

 

[beloved57]

So you propose that it is saying that God only loves all the adult males?

Im proposing that none of those scriptures says all mankind.

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[Rosenritter]

You have forced the issue. Lol.

Do you believe that God is omnipotent?


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I believe that God cannot create paradox and will not act contrary to his nature. He cannot make one equal two and he cannot force someone to love him against their own (free) will. With those qualifications I would say God is omnipotent.

Revelation 19:6 KJV
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Im proposing that none of those scriptures says all mankind.

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In John 3 the Greek for world is "Kosmos". That goes beyond the earth. How, again are you correct?


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[Rosenritter]

Jesus is the presence of God within time, or the flesh of God, so to speak. The Father is the very essence of God that is beyond time. or mind of God. The Holy Spirit is an analogy for the presence of God with us and that draws us to God, when we are marred by hate, pride or the spiritual like. The Holy Spirit is specifically the presence of God, after the work of the cross.

Is this fair to say in context of scripture?


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I object to "outside time" in that description. I used to think in those terms but I came to the realization that I hadn't gotten it from scripture. I had heard someone say it and repeated it; it was philosophy. I predict that assumption is at the root of further assumptions about free will.

Also could point to reference of the Holy Spirit working with saints before the cross: such as David, Elijah, and Elisha. But perhaps that detail is inconsequential for where you are going with this.... But then again, maybe not.

 

[Rosenritter]

And you are just as confused and confusing as ever!

It isn't confusing to me. Foolishness to the Greeks perhaps but our God and salvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

You need to read one. . . a real one.

That passage will say the same thing, only better and with more eloquence.

 

[Rosenritter]

Im proposing that none of those scriptures says all mankind.

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It says all men for certain. But you must be right. I guess the women are out of luck...

Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Nope. Almost had me there you tricky trickster. When it says that God loves "all men" it includes both male AND female.

 

[beloved57]

It says all men for certain. But you must be right. I guess the women are out of luck...

Galatians 3:28 KJV
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Nope. Almost had me there you tricky trickster. When it says that God loves "all men" it includes both male AND female.

Those scriptures didn't say that, so your comment is invalid.

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[Crucible]

To limit the Love of God is not a response to understanding Jesus.

Only one force, counters Love.

Doctrines that come from the bible and limit God's love are not inspired by God.

Jesus abolished such doctrines in every word and deed in the 4 gospels. His revelation remains the anchor point of scripture.

The day of Spirit and Truth arrived with His revelation of Love.


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The more theologically correct term is 'particular redemption'.
Though it means the same hing, the word 'limited' comes off a bit heavy and overly definite.

The atonement was effectual- it did the job God willed. If God willed all to be saved, then He would save all.
He did not, and that's just a basic reality of Christianity.

 

[Crucible]

Jesus sacrifice has covered all though. Isn't that why people preach the good news to the world? To let everyone know Jesus has blotted out their sins 2000 years ago?

Jesus talks more about the unsaved then the saved. It's nice to call it 'good news' and spread it around as a 'free gift', but the truth is that there is more to it than that. It's clearly taught that the gate is narrow and few will enter.

This would not be the case if God willed all to be saved. Who He wants are the elect- and that is where the Reformed tradition's central construct, sovereign election, comes in.

The problem with many Christians today is treating God as a sort of beggar who consistently pleads with people to come to Him. They do not consider His perfect will, which is not subject to an undesirable outcome.

If one says 'God is in control', then one believes in these things. That's sort of the contradiction of contrary theology.