ECT Re: Ephesians 2:8

[Danoh]

I'm not sure I understand why Jesus would need or have faith?

This is what I understand faith to be.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Which just might be pointing to the possibility that some aspect or another is lacking either within your study approach, or hers (on this particular issue, as such "aspects" tend to be on a case by case).

In this case, I would say the aspect lacking in study approach is yours, not hers.

Her assertion reveals she rightly approached studying out the word "faith" from within a bit wider frame of reference.

Which will tend to be a bit more objective; will allow one to see that the word "faith" has more than one meaning.

Wider frame of reference - "oh, here is ONE meaning way over in these passages over here...oh, and look, way over on this other side, in these passages over here...here is a DIFFERENT meaning."

Either that, or she just looked the word up, plus some aspect of that.

By the way, Turbbo, when you have a sec, google the following words and take a look at the following pdf...

Dn-Wesley-Evans-Exegetical-Fallacies.pdf

Here is another one to Google and read.

tmsj19a pdf

Both very worthwhile study approach references.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

Why did Jesus need Gethsemane?

He didn't, we did.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not sure I understand why Jesus would need or have faith?

This is what I understand faith to be.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Jesus had to have faith....not just faithfulness. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.​

 

[glorydaz]

Then perhaps you might enlighten us as to what the devil tempting Jesus was all about?

Go fer it! Given He was the Son of God, What woud been the result had Jesus succumbed to any of those temptations by the devil, Per Luke 4:1-14 KJV? How do you suppose Vs 14 would have read had He failed?

Why don't you just tell me what you're trying to prove? I could go off on many different tangents with that question. I'd rather not try and guess what you're looking for.

You said this, "Jesus, the unglorified man, "full of Grace and Trurh", was entusted to preserve-protect the whole Godhead."

I see no use in engaging in hypotheticals..... Just get to the point.

 

[turbosixx]

Which just might be pointing to the possibility that some aspect or another is lacking either within your study approach, or hers (on this particular issue, as such "aspects" tend to be on a case by case).

In this case, I would say the aspect lacking in study approach is yours, not hers.

Her assertion reveals she rightly approached studying out the word "faith" from within a bit wider frame of reference.

Which will tend to be a bit more objective; will allow one to see that the word "faith" has more than one meaning.

Wider frame of reference - "oh, here is ONE meaning way over in these passages over here...oh, and look, way over on this other side, in these passages over here...here is a DIFFERENT meaning."

Either that, or she just looked the word up, plus some aspect of that.

By the way, Turbbo, when you have a sec, google the following words and take a look at the following pdf...

Dn-Wesley-Evans-Exegetical-Fallacies.pdf

Here is another one to Google and read.

tmsj19a pdf

Both very worthwhile study approach references.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

I understand faith has more than one meaning. That's why I was wanting input from her on what exactly she meant by "his" faith.

 

[Cross Reference]

Why don't you just tell me what you're trying to prove? I could go off on many different tangents with that question. I'd rather not try and guess what you're looking for.

You said this, "Jesus, the unglorified man, "full of Grace and Trurh", was entusted to preserve-protect the whole Godhead."

I see no use in engaging in hypotheticals..... Just get to the point.

And I don't like chasing yur rabbits. So I guess we are even.

Just tell me where I am scripturally wrong?: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14 (KJV)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:21-23 (KJV)


"But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him." Luke 9:32 (KJV)

see also Matt 17:4 and Mk 9:5 to see Jesus temporarilly glorified because He returned that He go to the cross, unglorified.

 

[glorydaz]

And I don't like chasing yur rabbits. So I guess we are even.

Just tell me where I am scripturally wrong?: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14 (KJV)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:21-23 (KJV)


"But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him." Luke 9:32 (KJV)

see also Matt 17:4 and Mk 9:5 to see Jesus temporarilly glorified because He returned that He go to the cross, unglorified.

I see Bible verses. Of course, there is nothing wrong with those verses.

If I had any clue about what you're trying to say, I might be able to respond. :chew:

 

[turbosixx]

Jesus had to have faith....not just faithfulness. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.​

I agree, we must have faith in order to please God.

This is where I'm confused. If you look at the verse you quoted, after the bold it says "he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"
We have to believe because we have not personally seen God. The way I understand it, Jesus is God so he does not have to believe (have faith) that God is.

I'm just trying to understand from your perspective.

 

[DAN P]

Then perhaps you might enlighten us as to what the devil tempting Jesus was all about?

Go fer it! Given He was the Son of God, What woud been the result had Jesus succumbed to any of those temptations by the devil, Per Luke 4:1-14 KJV? How do you suppose Vs 14 would have read had He failed?

Hi and it is simple !!

#1 , In Luke 4:3 , when Satan said , turn these stones bread !!

Satan is questioning Jesus power !

Jesus is telling Satan that He is the Bread of Life and we live by the word of God !!


Satan tries to give Him what is rightly Jesus !!

And one day they will be all His any way !!

And that TRUE wordhip is all belongs to God !!

And in verse TESTS His Divoinity and fails !!

Then tells Stan Thou shall not TEST the Lord God !!

The reason Satan was to TEST Jesus is to show all that He is God !!

And many even today do not believe that Jesus is God !!

Jesus mission IS TO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER and that was His mission and Satan did not get Jesus to STRIKE out on His OWN and dis-unify teh GODHEAD !!

Many people feel that God failed , and how and why do they believe that , because thoughts and ways are beyond our thinking to COMPREHEND !!

I could have said more , but I have to leave !!

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

I agree, we must have faith in order to please God.

This is where I'm confused. If you look at the verse you quoted, after the bold it says "he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"
We have to believe because we have not personally seen God. The way I understand it, Jesus is God so he does not have to believe (have faith) that God is.

I'm just trying to understand from your perspective.

Well, since man was created with the knowledge of God in him, then that cannot mean that faith means we start in the state of unbelief.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Note the words...."he that cometh to God". Having faith is more than believing God exists. It's a matter of trust. We know this because even the devils believe. James 2:19 Even our Lord's enemies knew He trusted in God. Matt. 27:43

 

[Cross Reference]

I see Bible verses. Of course, there is nothing wrong with those verses.

If I had any clue about what you're trying to say, I might be able to respond. :chew:

I gave you my uderstanding that you mocked. I followed it with what you just read. What more do you need to be convinced was true of Jesus before he was glorified in a permanent way, His ascension attesting to that fact.. Because His flesh was in union with God, Jesus preserved it and by doing so also protected the Godhead by NOT failing as Adam failed. All of this becaause Satan boasted he could make man fail given the right conditions. Jesus, the man, proved him wrong. That is why Jesus is called the second Adam and given a name higher than anyone either on Earth or in Heaven.. All of this is elementary teaching about Jesus and His relationship with the Godhead.

Now, do you wish to argue that? If so, which part?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi and it is simple !!

#1 , In Luke 4:3 , when Satan said , turn these stones bread !!

Satan is questioning Jesus power !

Jesus is telling Satan that He is the Bread of Life and we live by the word of God !!


Satan tries to give Him what is rightly Jesus !!

And one day they will be all His any way !!

And that TRUE wordhip is all belongs to God !!

And in verse TESTS His Divoinity and fails !!

Then tells Stan Thou shall not TEST the Lord God !!

The reason Satan was to TEST Jesus is to show all that He is God !!

And many even today do not believe that Jesus is God !!

Jesus mission IS TO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER and that was His mission and Satan did not get Jesus to STRIKE out on His OWN and dis-unify teh GODHEAD !!

Many people feel that God failed , and how and why do they believe that , because thoughts and ways are beyond our thinking to COMPREHEND !!

I could have said more , but I have to leave !!

dan p

I gave you my uderstanding that you mocked. I followed it with what you just read. What more do you need to be convinced was true of Jesus before he was glorified in a permanent way, His ascension attesting to that fact.. Because His flesh was in union with God, Jesus preserved it and by doing so also protected the Godhead by NOT failing as Adam failed. All of this becaause Satan boasted he could make man fail given the right conditions. Jesus, the man, proved him wrong. That is why Jesus is called the second Adam. All of this is elementary teaching about Jesus and His relationship with the Godhead.

Now, do you wish to argue that? If so, which part?

If Dan didn't hit it, then I don't stand a chance.

 

[Cross Reference]

If Dan didn't hit it, then I don't stand a chance.

Satan wasn't ever questioning who Jesus was. He knew from scratch who Jesus was. God knew also and left Him alone in the whole matter for Jesus to reveal where His Allegiance laid either to himself or to God... Hence, what Dan wrote is skewed at best. So it boils down to what you NEED to believe, doesn't it?

 

[Cross Reference]

If Dan didn't hit it, then I don't stand a chance.

Why not accept what I wrote as true? What do you stand to lose? I believe Jesus is God as well. Try thinking perspective. Start your system of belief with Jesus, the son of man, conceived by God born into Adam's race as being the only man who could ever redeem his progeny?

 

[glorydaz]

Why not accept what I wrote as true? What do you stand to lose? I believe Jesus is God as well. Try thinking perspective. Start your system of belief with Jesus, the son of man, conceived by God born into Adam's race as being the only man who could ever redeem his progeny?

Because you're basing your theory on a hypothetical....that the godhead could ever possibly be separated or out of unity.

 

[Cross Reference]

Because you're basing your theory on a hypothetical....that the godhead could ever possibly be separated or out of unity.

No hypotheical, no theory at all. What happened when Adam failed under the same circumstances? Fortunately Adam was created and not born of the Godhead. Though both Adam and Jesus came directly from the "Hand" of God only Jesus was of the seed of God. You should be able now to understand the unrecocilable position the Godhead would have been in had Jesus failed because there could never ever have been an advocater to plead His case. Forgiveness would have been impossible. You also should now be able to understand the significance as to why Adam was kicked out the garden preventing him of eating of the tree of life.. What do you suppose would have happened had Adam had eaten it? Read the account again.

Do you see my Avatar? Ponder it. Was that not the Flesh of Jesus the Angel had his hand on? Was not Jesus praying from His flesh fearing He would not make it through?

 

[glorydaz]

No hypotheical, no theory at all.

It is a hypothetical in that it didn't happen.

So, what if Adam had not sinned?
Do you think that was a possibility?

And what if Jesus had sinned?
Do you think that is a possibility?

 

[Cross Reference]

It is a hypothetical in that it didn't happen.

Why don't you give me your version?

So, what if Adam had not sinned?
Do you think that was a possibility?

And what if Jesus had sinned?
Do you think that is a possibility?

Adam did and Jesus could have. Simple as that. What you need ask is why Jesus didn't and what would have happened had He done so? . . and don't tell me He was God and couldn't. Say something that makes sense because God can't be tempted. He was tempted in all ways as "ordinary" man. That is not my theory either.

What do you suppose was the reason God permitted Jesus to be tempted since you don't believe my scriptural account?

Given you believe Jesus was God and God can't die, have you ever been inclined to ask why Jesus was made a lttle than the angels after reading that He was?

 

[turbosixx]

Well, since man was created with the knowledge of God in him, then that cannot mean that faith means we start in the state of unbelief.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Note the words...."he that cometh to God". Having faith is more than believing God exists. It's a matter of trust. We know this because even the devils believe. James 2:19 Even our Lord's enemies knew He trusted in God. Matt. 27:43

Thanks for your insight.

 

[glorydaz]

Why don't you give me your version?

Adam did and Jesus could have. Simple as that.

Yep, simple as that.

What you need ask is why Jesus didn't and what would have happened had He done so? . . and don't tell me He was God and couldn't.

Why say I need to ask why Jesus didn't sin?
It's you that wants an answer, isn't it?
Since He didn't sin, it's pointless to speculate on what might have happened.

The real question, then, is how was it Jesus managed to NOT SIN as Adam did. Wouldn't you say?

Say something that makes sense because God can't be tempted. He was tempted in all ways as "ordinary" man. That is not my theory either.

Right, He was fully human. In fact, one of the reasons God came in the flesh, was to be tempted as we are.

What do you suppose was the reason God permitted Jesus to be tempted since you don't believe my scriptural account?

Jesus was tempted in all ways...as we are, that he could make reconciliation between man and God.

Practically, this verse has got to be speaking of the Comforter which was to come.

Heb. 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.​