Interplanner
Well-known member
Right, the 2500 uses of the OT don't fit D'ism. That's the misfit you are seeing.
Heb 2:9. He is now crowned and honored as king because he suffered the Gospel for us. That's the NT in one line.
Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
- Start date
Right, the 2500 uses of the OT don't fit D'ism. That's the misfit you are seeing.
Heb 2:9. He is now crowned and honored as king because he suffered the Gospel for us. That's the NT in one line.
Interplanner
Well-known member
As I said, he made an allowance about the things after. It makes perfect sense. He described the 1st century situation and the ruin of the buildings and the end of the age of Judaism. He allowed for the end of the world to be distant.
I'm not deceived. I have listened closely to what all people are saying very closely. The dumbest thing I have heard is people trying to force Mt24A out of the 1st century where it clearly belongs.
Interplanner
Well-known member
As thought all of a sudden Christ was so serious about protecting...people who would not exist for X000 years and calling them 'you' and describing everything as though it was Judea AD 30 but was actually going to be Judea X000 years in the future. Right! Perfect sense!
Interplanner
Well-known member
Acts 13 and Hebrews confirm that everything promised to Israel was realized in Christ. Acts 13's sermon and Heb 11's wrap up. Which is why 12:22+ makes sense, without D'ism and in total refutation of it.
There is therefore no cancellation, because there aren't two programs going unrelated to each other. God is not about a race in one breath and against race identity in the next. Except at your desk.
There is therefore no cancellation, because there aren't two programs going unrelated to each other. God is not about a race in one breath and against race identity in the next. Except at your desk.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It does not make perfect sense to assert that the Lord Jesus was wrong when He said that immediately after the tribulation that there would be signs in the ske and that every eye would see Him when He returns to the earth.
You have been deceived!
Interplanner
Well-known member
I was ridiculing the futurist view that Christ was so serious and detailed in his warnings, referring to his listeners as 'you', but meant people X000 years in the future.
He allowed for a delay just a few verses later after v29--'only the Father knows'. Mk 13 allows for a delay by saying there were 4 options when the master would return, 2 Peter 3 speaks reflectively that God might delay the 2nd coming and it was not to be seen as a mistake.
Sorry I don't know how to get this concept across any better, but we were meant to read to v29 about the 1st century situation, then shift to the whole world, with an allowance for the delay.
If you have a copy of Lattourrettes' history, on p43, you can read his discussion of this, his thoughts on what the apostles thought as soon as life went on after Masada in 72. They then realized there would not be an end of the world at that time. Some probably thought it was starting when Pompeii happened in 79, but that was confined to that area.
Right Divider
Body part
That's exactly your problem in a nutshell.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heb 2:9 is a problem! --RD
Right Divider
Body part
No, it is not! --IP
Read the whole thing and understand it, instead of fairy tailing it.
Heb 2:17 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Who are "the people"?
Are you laboring?
Heb 4:8-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (4:9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (4:10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. (4:11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Why do they need to "labor" to enter the rest? Why aren't they resting in God's grace by faith without works?
Interplanner
Well-known member
The UNBELIEVERS weren't, Hebrew or not. The Bible is about how people should be BELIEVERS not UNBELIEVERS. It could care less what race you are. It originated in the Jewish community to say things no matter what community. That's why it begins saturated with Jewish reference, names, people, instances, only to (logically) branch to all nations, where the object of Abraham's and Gen 3's blessings were directed to start with, as you know, but seem to have forgotten.
Interplanner
Well-known member
That Gospel and King mentioned in 2:9, is the same Guy mentioned in Acts 2, fulfilling David's vision, and it is one Gospel, originating in the Jewish community for the purpose of going to all nations, as Lk 24 reminds us. The kingdom power to do that is what was conferred in 1:8. The preoccupation with buildings and geography was treated as spastic.
Right Divider
Body part
So you believe that the US in that verse refers to unbelievers? :rotfl:
This may be the first correct thing that you've ever posted. Well done!
The nation Israel is to bless all other nations in the earthly kingdom that Christ told the twelve to pray for.
Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
The body of Christ is different, we have no promised land on the earth.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The unbelievers weren't at rest, whether Hebrew or not. There are many things of value for us as non-Jewish Christians even though we weren't the first target audience. All believers need to be cleared of sin, to be free of the shadow of death. Your compartments for everything are your problem.
Get to know Gal 3: it is how the original blessing was for all nations; Gal 3 speaks of it fulfilled and blessing people in motion at that time not future.
The earth vs heaven locations of bliss are to puerile to address. Besides heb 11,12 has your fav "Hebrew" believers in heaven, lol. (Hint: it's "Hebrews" in the sense of children of Abraham's faith, as always in the NT; not the race, not the state).
Right Divider
Body part
Israel is a nation.
Rev 21:10-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (21:11) Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; (21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (21:13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. (21:14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Interplanner
Well-known member
1, never use the Rev to ground a doctrine. That's done in doctrinal NT letters.
2, it is clearly not a nation in the image. It is names of tribes used for walls. Totally different. You don't know what you are looking at.
3, the apostles are not a nation, but they are part of this "building" too. So are they are nation, in your logic?
4, Rom 9:6. You have to chose which.
Would the D'ists please answer this simple question: why is it that the letter to Hebrews supposedly champions the race/nation, yet refutes and replaces everything about Judaism, does not locate even OT believers in the land, and has the heaven-based vision of 12:22+, which is "impossible" in D'ist-speak, because Israel the race/nation is supposed to be on earth. You are only allowed to be confusing about one of these things not three.
Right Divider
Body part
So you just ignore it?
The tribes make up the nation of Israel. Are you really that twisted?
Also, the names of the tribes are on the GATES. THREE per each wall.
Rev 21:12-13 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (21:13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
You are terrible with handling the WORD OF GOD.
There are TWELVE apostles of the Lamb... for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.
I don't have to choose your fairy tale version of "Israel".
Your fairy tale version of what the Bible says is confused and wrong.
Interplanner
Well-known member
On the last one,
I'm reporting on what you have said. So it would be a matter of twisting what you are saying, which I'm not.
The questions stands: why do D'ists champion hebrews as though it was for Israel, when it refutes/displaces everything about Judaism, and celebrates the fellowship of Zion above instead of on earth? And then fails to mention that it would be on earth-- the 'to be shaken' earth, not the indestructible kingdom?
So now the apostles are part of the nation of Israel? Please make sense. Are you certain there was not another "Israel" in mind? It hurts to read what you say.
Right Divider
Body part
It hurts you because you despise the truth.
Israel was always promised an earthly kingdom and a land. These promises were never rescinded. But God had another "thing" that He had planned all along and THAT is what He is doing today. This dispensation of His grace will not last forever and there will be a time when Israel is restored.
Rom 11:11-15 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (11:14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. (11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Just believe it as written and quit trying to change it.
Bee1
New member
I have no dog in this hunt but I will like to say that both of you are basing your assumptions on material that has been degraded and change to conform to views of whoever in control at the time .
Before movable type (printing) came about there was no way of validating who had what and who didn't. If you are privileged enough to take God's name OUT the Bible without a whimper from anyone else , I assume that because the last time I check the word God is still in the Bible , than you can do just about anything , anytime .
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