Rapture Ready

[serpentdove]

You are otherworldly, and I don't see that in true Christian faith.

:yawn: Perhaps you've never met a Christian (Jas 4:4). :idunno:

[Prager] Only this week did he explain once again that parent that does not teach kids they have to battle themselves (the evil in themselves, not the 'environment') is worthless.

He can't control himself (Mt 5:28). He's a wave the white flag kind of guy (2 Pe 1:6). :banana:

...the Christian mission is here to see the world turned upside down...

No it's not (Mk 16:15).

"We give out the word of God. What men do with it is their business." ~ J. Vernon McGee

You have decided to take one minor aspect of the 2nd coming and distort the very fiber of the thing.

The rapture is not the Second Coming. The rapture occurs prior to his Second Coming.

All those who await the 2nd coming, who want to see Christ, have a deep yearning for all society to be righteous and self-controlled as well.

That will come soon enough. What is more important is to be prepared to be worthy to escape all these things which will come to pass (Lk 21:36).

 

[Interplanner]

re Prager and Mt 5:28
I don't think you've caught what Prager says there. He means that men have that inclination; Christ said this, not that anything can be done about it, but to define that all people are adulterous. "Tidy" remarriage arrangements by the Pharisees do not solve it. Women are often emotionally adulterous, too. I think your understanding of both people is on the level of sound-bytes, not what they are actually saying. Prager has said many times how disgusting adultery and porn are; or addiction in general.

re never meeting a Christian.
You're being ridiculous.

re turning the world upside down.
OK, they don't wake up trying to do that each day. However, if you are not subversive, and don't realize that the message and presumptions are subversive, you don't know what you are dealing with.

All this began with the place of the rapture in terms of overall historic Christian doctrine. Yes, there are some aspects of the rapture that would be subversive to absorb for the typical person in our culture. However, there are secular versions of simply escaping everything in our culture, which is dangerous thinking, and to the degree that the rapture reflects that, it is dangerous morally and theologically.

re prior to
There is no clear indication of this. There are no long lists of geo-political events that need to take place for the 2nd coming and day of judgement to take place. That is a totally artificial reading of the Rev. The ordinary language passage on the 2nd coming that covers all the ground and is longest is 2 Pet 3, and there is nothing of the sort there.

Mt24A and parallels are not about such geo-political events before the 2nd coming; they are about the DofJ in that generation. You have mistakenly used Lk 21 here and has no basis. The being worthy is addressed to that generation of Israel. In that generation, you either joined the zealots in the general rebellion, or you were in the Messianic mission that didn't try to 'defend' the land of Israel. You are taking material about that specific event and trying to apply it to a general way of seeing the so-called last days that people have been expecting for 70 years now.

 

[serpentdove]

re Prager and Mt 5:28 I don't think you've caught what Prager says there. He means that men have that inclination; Christ said this, not that anything can be done about it, but to define that all people are adulterous. "Tidy" remarriage arrangements by the Pharisees do not solve it. Women are often emotionally adulterous, too.

Prager has no interest in scrubbing himself up (Jn 15:3).

There is no such things as re

marriage until one's spouse is dead (Rom. 7:2, 3). :dizzy: The word you are looking for is adultery (Heb. 13:4). But, this is Sodom

aka America. We make it up as we go along. :banana:

See:

Divorce & Re marriage: A Position Paper by John Piper

I think your understanding of both people is on the level of sound-bytes...

:yawn: "Repetition is the mother of pedagogy." ~ Dennis Prager

Prager has said many times how disgusting adultery and porn are; or addiction in general.

He discards wives as one might discard an orange peel after having squeezed all the juice out (Rogers). Prager is a pragmatist.

re turning the world upside down. OK, they don't wake up trying to do that each day.

You're awfully concerned with our Day Timers. You could always get off your blessed assurance and do your own kingdom work. :idunno: Mk 9:41, Dan 10:13, Ps 105:15, Ro 14:4, Mk 6:11, Is 45:24, 54:17, Re 12:10, 12, Mt 13:7, Jud 1:9

...[T]here are secular versions of simply escaping everything in our culture...

Discussion about the rapture disturbs you. :listen: Maybe that's because you're not going in it (Lk 21:36). lain: Maybe you're a foolish virgin with no oil in your lamp.

...[W]hich is dangerous thinking...

Dangerous :idunno: encouraging 1 Thess 4:18

...it is dangerous morally and theologically.

For you, the bible is dangerous. For us it's a bright day (Ps 37:6). :straight: There are a lot of caterpillars

out there pretending to be butterflies.

There are no long lists of geo-political events that need to take place for the 2nd coming and day of judgment to take place.

The rapture is imminent. The Second Coming occurs about 7 years after that.

You have mistakenly used Lk 21 here and has no basis.

Jn 8:37 :juggle:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The rapture is not the Second Coming. The rapture occurs prior to his Second Coming.

No.

Christ returns to raise the saints and every eye sees Him coming.

After a shot space (not 7 years) the vials of wrath begin which only accur for 30 days--

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

Everything happens at once. The Rev is not a prognostication about a series of future events, but is about the trauma of the 1st century trauma in Israel.

 

[serpentdove]

[The rapture is not the Second Coming. The rapture occurs prior to his Second Coming.] No.

Christ returns to raise the saints and every eye sees Him coming.

I suppose you are responding to me since you quote me (without a link [Eph 4:14]).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Rev. 1:7].

"“Behold, he cometh with clouds” denotes the personal and physical coming of Christ.

“And every eye shall see him” reveals that His coming will be a physical and bodily appearance, an appeal to the eye–gate. As far as we know, when Christ takes the church out of the world at the Rapture, He doesn’t appear to everyone. I don’t believe in a secret rapture as some folk have attempted to describe it, but at the time of the Rapture He does not come to the earth. Believers are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If Christ will be coming to the earth at that time, there is no point in being caught up in the air. Therefore, this is not the Rapture which is being described in this verse. This is His return to the earth as King.

“Every eye shall see him.” The emphasis in the Book of Revelation is upon His coming to this earth to establish His Kingdom.

“All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” Probably a better translation is this: “All the tribes of the earth shall beat their breasts because of him.” This is going to be the reaction of all Christ–rejectors. The world will not want to see Him.

“Even so, Amen” means “Yea, faithful.” He is going to do it, my friend. He is not going to change His mind about it. He is faithful." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible Commentary: The Prophecy (Revelation 1-5) (electronic ed., Vol. 58, p. 43). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

As a reminder Lazy afternoon is number 11 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

 

[Interplanner]

I suppose you are responding to me since you quote me (without a link [Eph 4:14]).


Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Rev. 1:7].


"“Behold, he cometh with clouds” denotes the personal and physical coming of Christ.

“And every eye shall see him” reveals that His coming will be a physical and bodily appearance, an appeal to the eye–gate. As far as we know, when Christ takes the church out of the world at the Rapture, He doesn’t appear to everyone. I don’t believe in a secret rapture as some folk have attempted to describe it, but at the time of the Rapture He does not come to the earth. Believers are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If Christ will be coming to the earth at that time, there is no point in being caught up in the air. Therefore, this is not the Rapture which is being described in this verse. This is His return to the earth as King.

“Every eye shall see him.” The emphasis in the Book of Revelation is upon His coming to this earth to establish His Kingdom.

“All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” Probably a better translation is this: “All the tribes of the earth shall beat their breasts because of him.” This is going to be the reaction of all Christ–rejectors. The world will not want to see Him.

“Even so, Amen” means “Yea, faithful.” He is going to do it, my friend. He is not going to change His mind about it. He is faithful." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible Commentary: The Prophecy (Revelation 1-5) (electronic ed., Vol. 58, p. 43). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

It all happens at once; there are no charts, schemes, diagrams about 59 moving parts.

 

[serpentdove]

[Rapture, Second Coming] It all happens at once...

Jas 3:1 :dizzy:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I suppose you are responding to me since you quote me (without a link [Eph 4:14]).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Rev. 1:7].

"“Behold, he cometh with clouds” denotes the personal and physical coming of Christ.

“And every eye shall see him” reveals that His coming will be a physical and bodily appearance, an appeal to the eye–gate. As far as we know, when Christ takes the church out of the world at the Rapture, He doesn’t appear to everyone. I don’t believe in a secret rapture as some folk have attempted to describe it, but at the time of the Rapture He does not come to the earth. Believers are to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If Christ will be coming to the earth at that time, there is no point in being caught up in the air. Therefore, this is not the Rapture which is being described in this verse. This is His return to the earth as King.

“Every eye shall see him.” The emphasis in the Book of Revelation is upon His coming to this earth to establish His Kingdom.

“All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” Probably a better translation is this: “All the tribes of the earth shall beat their breasts because of him.” This is going to be the reaction of all Christ–rejectors. The world will not want to see Him.

“Even so, Amen” means “Yea, faithful.” He is going to do it, my friend. He is not going to change His mind about it. He is faithful." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible Commentary: The Prophecy (Revelation 1-5) (electronic ed., Vol. 58, p. 43). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

As a reminder Lazy afternoon is number 11 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:

You attempt to defame a son of God in order to deny that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a lie with no scriptural backing.

That is wickedness.

LA

 

[serpentdove]

You attempt to defame a son of God...

:yawn: Choleric put you on Satan, Inc. :dizzy: Eph 4:14, 5:11

 

[patrick jane]

You attempt to defame a son of God in order to deny that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a lie with no scriptural backing.

That is wickedness.

LA

You know wickedness so well - do you believe it happens post tribulation?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You know wickedness so well - do you believe it happens post tribulation?

Tribulation of the saints and of all believers, ends at the resurrection and the vials of wrath then begin.(not 3.5 years but 30 days of it ).

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I doubt that the Lord will let you know the truth as you keep saying I have a demon.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

:yawn: Choleric put you on Satan, Inc. :dizzy: Eph 4:14, 5:11

Try using the truth to expose darkness, not the opinion of a trouble maker,
a novice at that.

LA

 

[patrick jane]

I doubt that the Lord will let you know the truth as you keep saying I have a demon.

LA

The Lord has opened my heart and my eyes to the truth - you carry out wicked works

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The Lord has opened my heart and my eyes to the truth - you carry out wicked works

If you know the truth then why not use it instead of accusation without evidence.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

LA

 

[serpentdove]

[:yawn: Choleric put you on Satan, Inc. :dizzy: Eph 4:14, 5:11] Try using the truth to expose darkness...

Sounds right to me (Eph 4:14). :idunno:

 

[Interplanner]

Back to the title. The only way to be acceptable to God is justification in Christ. There is no separate readiness for the rapture. This is a non-topic bibically. Huge numbers of chapters are devoted to justification. Half of one is about the rapture in the specific moment of the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem.

Get balance and perspective.

 

[serpentdove]

This is a non-topic biblically...

:dizzy:

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk 21:34–36

 

[Interplanner]

:dizzy:

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk 21:34–36

That whole passage especially is about the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact, when compared with Mark and Matt, it does not seem to allow for a distant future at all. Everything including the 2nd coming was to happen in that generation.

Most of Luke was notes on Paul's teaching; they traveled together. As you know from Paul's material, he always thought the 2nd coming was quite soon, even when on such unrelated topics as marriage, I Cor 7.

 

[serpentdove]

That whole passage especially is about the destruction of Jerusalem...

:dizzy:

"Lk 21:34 that Day. I.e., the day of His return. See note on Matt. 24:37. When Christ mentions His return, he invariably enjoins watchfulness (cf. 12:37–40; Matt. 25:13; Mark 13:33–37)...

...Mt 24:37 as the days of Noah were. Jesus’ emphasis here is not so much on the extreme wickedness of Noah’s day (Gen. 6:5), but on the people’s preoccupation with mundane matters of everyday life (“eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”—v. 38), when judgment fell suddenly. They had received warnings, in the form of Noah’s preaching (2 Pet. 2:5)—and the ark itself, which was a testimony to the judgment that was to come. But they were unconcerned about such matters and therefore were swept away unexpectedly in the midst of their daily activities.

24:40, 41 one will be taken. I.e., taken in judgment (cf. v. 39) just as in Noah’s day (“took them”; v. 39). This is clearly not a reference to the catching away of believers described in 1 Thess. 4:16, 17.

24:43 the thief. As no one knows what hour the thief will come, no one knows the hour of the Lord’s return or the Day of the Lord that accompanies His coming (cf. 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10). But the believer is to be ready at all times." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1440). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

Also see:

What do partial preterists believe?

What is the preterist view of the end times?