ECT Questions for the Mid Acts Dispensationalists: What Happened to the Remnant?

[Jerry Shugart]

No, it's not evident, because He's referring to "we in the Body of Christ."

So when Paul uses the pronoun "we" in the following passage his reference includes the Gentile believers in the Body of Christ?:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).​

That is impossible because the Gentile believers were never under the law:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

When Paul spoke of those who were kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Therefore, common sense dictates that all of Jewish believers in the Body of Christ in the first centuries made up the remnant.

And the remnant included the Twelve!

 

[Tambora]

The twelve are never referred to as the remnant.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The twelve are never referred to as the remnant.

Do you deny that when Paul uses the word "we" in the following verse he was addressing the Jews who were previously under the law?:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).​

When Paul spoke of those who had been kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Those people are the people whom Paul calls the "remnant" at Romans 11:5.

Since there is can only be one remnant that means that the Twelve were among that remnant and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ.

 

[northwye]

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Romans 11: 1-5 refers to the remnant of Old Covenant Israel who believed and who began the New Covenant as the Body of Christ.

Dispensationalists sometimes seem to say that there is also no remnant of those claiming to be of the Body of Christ at times after the First Century when the remnant of Israel were alive.

The principle of the remnant says that in a time of apostasy that God creates a remnant to carry on his plan of redemption. This principle is taken from the history of Old Covenant Israel during which there were periods of apostasy and at that time there was a remnant. Paul mentions one of these periods of apostasy and of a remnant at that time in Romans 11: 2-4.

The New Testament contains a number of prophecies about apostasy, and of false prophets that were predicted to arise. Would dispensationalists deny that those claiming to be Christians fall into periods of apostasy?

Is there a dispensationalist position on the remnant in Revelation 12: 17? "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." In Romans 11: 5 remnant is from λειμμα, Strong's 3005, leimma, from 3007; a remainder:--remnant. In Revelation 12: 17 remnant is from λοιπων, 3062. loipoy loy-poy' masculine plural of a derivative of 3007; remaining ones:--other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.3063.

loipon loy-pon' neuter singular of the same as 3062; something remaining (adverbially):--besides, finally, furthermore, (from) henceforth, moreover, now, + it remaineth, then. This is from: http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=3062

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The remnant of which Paul speaks at Romans 11:5 were the only ones who were saved out of all the Jews living in the first century. And after Israel was temporarily set aside they were made members of the Body of Christ.

When Paul uses the word "we" in the following verse he was addressing the Jews who were previously under the law and therefore members of the commonwealth of Israel previously?:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24)​

When Paul spoke of those who had been kept under the law at Galatians 3:23 he was addressing Jews who had previously been under the Law of Moses and who had also been of Israel. Those people are the same people who were previously the believing remnant out of Israel until that nation was temporarily set aside.

Since there is can only be one remnant that means that the Twelve were among that remnant and therefore they are members of the Body of Christ.

 

[northwye]

It looks like dispensationalism teaches that there is no remnant that can exist after the remnant of Old Covenant Israel died off, and there is no remnant during the Church Age. I asked if there is a dispensationalist position on the remnant in Revelation 12: 17. Maybe dispensationalists just ignore Revelation 12: 17, as they ignore some other New Testament scriptures which do not agree with their theology.

For example, here are some New Testament scriptures that can be looked at to see if they agree or disagree with the doctrines of dispensationalism: : John 10: 16, Romans 12: 4-5, Ephesians 4: 4, Romans 10: 12, Galatians 3: 28, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8, Romans 11: 17-20, II Corinthians 3: 6-11, Galatians 3: 3, 16-17, 27-29, Hebrews 10: 9, and Hebrews 8: 13.

 

[Tambora]

It looks like dispensationalism teaches that there is no remnant that can exist after the remnant of Old Covenant Israel died off, and there is no remnant during the Church Age.

Jerry does, dispensationalism doesn't.

 

[northwye]

See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

"The remnant is the Jewish wing of the Church. The church is an airplane that only has two wings, a Jewish wing and a Gentile wing. If one wing is lost or ignored, the church crashes."

I thought that the founders of dispensationalism said that Old Covenant Israel and the Church are different groups of God's people who remain separate. Dispensationalism is a confusing theology.

See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

"Remnant: The concept of remnant can be Biblically defined as that continuous portion, be it large or small, of the community of ethnic Israel which has been supernaturally preserved and redeemed through various divine judgments throughout various dispensations. This preservation is on account of God’s sovereign choice, or election, and not by virtue of human effort."

The above tries to define the remnant as being only a Jewish group and there is therefore no remnant of Gentiles or of the Church, though sometimes dispensationalism says that saved Jews and Saved Gentiles make up a unity of God's people.

But Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Is not Revelation 12: 17 a prophecy, not a statement on the history of Old Covenant Israel? And is not this remnant a remnant during the Church age, and the existence of a remnant implies falling away from sound doctrine - see I Timothy 1: 10, especially II Timothy 4: 3?

Dispensationalism itself could not be a falling away from sound doctrine, could it, not in the eyes of the dispensationalists?

 

[Right Divider]

See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

"The remnant is the Jewish wing of the Church. The church is an airplane that only has two wings, a Jewish wing and a Gentile wing. If one wing is lost or ignored, the church crashes."

I thought that the founders of dispensationalism said that Old Covenant Israel and the Church are different groups of God's people who remain separate. Dispensationalism is a confusing theology.

See: http://www.according2prophecy.org/52colleague.html

"Remnant: The concept of remnant can be Biblically defined as that continuous portion, be it large or small, of the community of ethnic Israel which has been supernaturally preserved and redeemed through various divine judgments throughout various dispensations. This preservation is on account of God’s sovereign choice, or election, and not by virtue of human effort."

The above tries to define the remnant as being only a Jewish group and there is therefore no remnant of Gentiles or of the Church, though sometimes dispensationalism says that saved Jews and Saved Gentiles make up a unity of God's people.

But Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Is not Revelation 12: 17 a prophecy, not a statement on the history of Old Covenant Israel? And is not this remnant a remnant during the Church age, and the existence of a remnant implies falling away from sound doctrine - see I Timothy 1: 10, especially II Timothy 4: 3?

Dispensationalism itself could not be a falling away from sound doctrine, could it, not in the eyes of the dispensationalists?

Sorry, but your guy is confused.

His problem is that he has "studied the Bible with a focus on prophesy". His unbalanced approach is bound to lead to the very problems that he exhibits.