ECT Questions for the Mid Acts Dispensationalists: What Happened to the Remnant?

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul speaks of a remnant in the following verses:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (Ro.11:5-7).​

From the context can we not understand that the remnant is referring to believing Jews? At that time the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside (Ro.11:15) so what did the LORD do with that remnant?

Will anyone disagree with the idea that they were made members of the Body of Christ, especially with the following words of Paul in view?:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Is there a Mid Acts dispensationalist who will deny that those belonging to the remnant were made members of the Body of Christ?

 

[Tambora]

The remnant of Israel will always be the remnant of Israel because GOD said there would always be a remnant of Israel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The remnant of Israel will always be the remnant of Israel because GOD said there would always be a remnant of Israel.

Are you not aware that the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside?

If you are right and the remnant remained with Israel then doesn't that mean that they too were set aside?

 

[Tambora]

Are you not aware that the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside?

I am.

If you are right and the remnant remained with Israel then doesn't that mean that they too were set aside?

Yes.
All of Israel awaits the fulfillment of the promises to them, and that includes the remnant.
Israel was temporarily set aside when taken captive by the Babylonians, and the remnant was included.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All of Israel awaits the fulfillment of the promises to them, and that includes the remnant.

What about these Jews?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Weren't they a part of what you called "all Israel" at one time and so how can you argue that the remnant is waiting for the promises made to the nation of Israel--since those Jews are a part of the remnant?

And if one of the two groups mentioned in the following is not the remnant then who are they?

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

 

[Tambora]

There is no "remnant" of the BOC.
The BOC is never set aside.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no "remnant" of the BOC.
The BOC is never set aside.

I never said that there was ever a remnant of the Body of Christ. If you will examine my initial post when I spoke about the remnant it was in the "context" of Israel and not the Body of Christ.

All of Israel awaits the fulfillment of the promises to them, and that includes the remnant.

What about these Jews?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Weren't they a part of what you called "all Israel" at one time and so how can you argue that the remnant is waiting for the promises made to the nation of Israel--since those Jews are a part of the remnant?

And if one of the two groups mentioned in the following is not the remnant then who are they?

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

 

[Tambora]

The promises to Israel (including the remnant) are different than the promises to the BOC.

I am not one that believes that the BOC is the only group with salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The promises to Israel (including the remnant) are different than the promises to the BOC.

Please answer my questions.

Thanks!

 

[Tambora]

Does the remnant go through the tribulation?
Will the remnant be raptured?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does the remnant go through the tribulation?
Will the remnant be raptured?

The members of the remnant in the first century were baptized into the Body of Christ when Israel was temporarily set aside. In the following verse John is speaking about the things which will happen at the rapture:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Those who received John's epistles were taught that it was possible that they would be alive when the Lord Jesus appears--"when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is."

They were also taught that "when he shall appear... we shall be like him."

John's words can only be in regard to the "mystery" truth found here and only applies to members of the Body of Christ:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

The events of which are spoken of at 1 John 3:2 can only be in regard to the rapture. And according to Paul Sadler, the past President of the Berean Bible Society, only the members of the Body of Christ will be raptured:

"The 'secret' resurrection that will take place at the Rapture should never be confused with the 'first' resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ. Those who rightly divide the Word of truth now see that only the members of the Body of Christ will be raised at the Rapture" [emphasis mine] (Paul Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1993], 167).​

 

[Tambora]

If the remnant of Israel is now the BOC, then all prophesy about the remnant would be about the BOC.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If the remnant of Israel is now the BOC, then all prophesy about the remnant would be about the BOC.

No, all those belonging to the remnant died during the first century while in the Body of Christ. And those belonging to the remnant were taught that when the Lord appears they will be like Him. That only applies to the mysteries which are exclusive to the Body of Christ.

Then after the rapture the Lord will begin to deal with Israel as a special people unto Him and all the unfulfilled prophecies in regard to Israel will be fulfilled in them or their offspring.

Unless you want to argue that there were two remnants then it is not difficult to understand what happened to the one remnant:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

The two groups Paul mentions are the believing Gentiles and the believing Jews:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[Tambora]

Prophesies about the remnant are not prophesies about the BOC.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What about these Jews?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

They are not part of the remnant.

The remnant were promised salvation prior to God's establishing of the BoC, and received it upon their death.

To keep this simple, there are basically three groups of Jews in the New Testament.

There is the group "all of Israel," there is the group "the Remnant," and there is the group "part of the Body of Christ."

"All of Israel" includes "the Remnant" AND "part of the Body of Christ."

However, "the Remnant" and "part of the Body of Christ" have no individuals in common. The Remnant are all Jews, and the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile.

The fact that the Remnant makes the distinction while the BoC does not should tell you that the two groups ARE NOT and CANNOT be the same group.

Weren't they a part of what you called "all Israel" at one time and so how can you argue that the remnant is waiting for the promises made to the nation of Israel--since those Jews are a part of the remnant?

The portion of your post in both sections above that is highlighted and the portion that is red text is a bait and switch, and then you beg the question with the final portion highlighted. Both of those types of arguments are logical fallacies.

Yes, all the Jews, whether in the BoC or in the Remnant, are or were part of ISRAEL. Your switch is that you swap out "Jews" with "remnant".

Not all of Israel is part of the remnant.

Not all of Israel are members of the BoC.

And there are those who were of Israel who went to Hell, because they did not keep the law.

AND there are those who kept the law, and when Christ was raised, went to Heaven, who are neither Remnant NOR BoC.

And if one of the two groups mentioned in the following is not the remnant then who are they?

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

I'm pretty sure I addressed this in the other thread.

And I know I just addressed this above in this post.

The Jews in the Body of Christ are no longer distinguished as Jew. The Gentiles in the Body of Christ are no longer distinguished as Gentile.

That "wall of partition" was broken down by Christ. There is no longer any difference between the two in the Body of Christ.

The Jews who became members of the Body of Christ are Jews who were not saved into the Remnant during Acts 1-8. The were law-keeping Jews who were part of the nation of Israel.

They ARE NOT and WERE NOT part of the Remnant EVER.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Prophesies about the remnant are not prophesies about the BOC.

All of those who made up the remnant passed away to be with the Lord centuries ago.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Remnant are all Jews, and the Body of Christ are neither Jew nor Gentile.

According to your reasoning Paul was not in the Body of Christ because he identified himself as being a Jew:

"For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).​

The Jews in the Body of Christ are no longer distinguished as Jew.

Then Paul must have been confused.

The were law-keeping Jews who were part of the nation of Israel.

They ARE NOT and WERE NOT part of the Remnant EVER.

Then that eliminates Paul because he was a law-keeper, just as were the following Jews who were in the Body of Christ:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).​

It is evident that when Paul uses the pronoun "we" that he was referring to those like him who were law-keeping Jews who were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel. And since they were previously under the law and a part of Israel they were the remnant out of Israel. And here Paul refers to the one remnant:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Ro.11:5).​

It is a fact that all those who lived under the law who were saved were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

So we can understand that the remnant were all saved by faith through grace even though they previously lived under the law. And the following verse speaks of two groups and one of them is the remnant and the other the believing Gentiles:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

 

[Tambora]

The prophesies of the remnant of Israel are not the prophesies of the BOC.

 

[Tambora]

Verses in the NT where "remnant" appears.

Matthew (for Israel)

Mat_22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.



Romans 9-11 (for Israel)


Rom_9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Revelation (for Israel)

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev_19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[JudgeRightly]

According to your reasoning Paul was not in the Body of Christ

Then you clearly don't understand my reasoning.

because he identified himself as being a Jew:

"For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).​

So what?

He was a Jew by birth. You're clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying, Jerry, and it's starting to annoy me.

I said that there is no DISTINCTION in the Body of Christ.

In Israel, under the law, there IS a distinction, and it's between Jew and Gentile.

In the Body of Christ, there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile.

Then Paul must have been confused.

:blabla:

Then that eliminates Paul because he was a law-keeper,

So what?

He was a law-keeper. He was not part of the Remnant. In fact, Paul was one of the ones KILLING what would become known as the Remnant.

just as were the following Jews who were in the Body of Christ:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal.3:23-24).​

Proof by repeated assertion is a fallacy, and so is question begging. This is both.

Who is Paul talking to? Is He talking to Jews in this passage? or is he talking to Gentiles? He's CLEARLY talking to Gentiles,

Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: - Galatians 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:1-2&version=NKJV

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),[/YELLOW]and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.[/YELLOW]They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:1-10&version=NKJV

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? - Galatians 3:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:1&version=NKJV

It is evident that when Paul uses the pronoun "we" that he was referring to those like him who were law-keeping Jews who were previously members of the commonwealth of Israel.

No, it's not evident, because He's referring to "we in the Body of Christ."

He constantly, throughout his epistles, contrasts "we" vs "they", speaking about Jews and those in the Body of Christ.

And since they were previously under the law and a part of Israel they were the remnant out of Israel.

This is based on a false premise.

And here Paul refers to the one remnant:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" (Ro.11:5).​

So what? Jerry, you're cherry-picking verses to support your position. That's never a good sign.

It is a fact that all those who lived under the law who were saved were saved by grace through faith:

No, they were saved by keeping the law, because one of the laws was to have faith.

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

So we can understand that the remnant were all saved by faith through grace

Except they weren't. They were saved by "enduring to the end." That means keeping the law until your death.

even though they previously lived under the law.

They were still under the law. Why do you think there was such confusion among the twelve when trying to understand what Paul was saying? They were still under the law, and Paul was saying "don't keep the law, because if you do, you're cursed!"

And the following verse speaks of two groups and one of them is the remnant and the other the believing Gentiles:

Except it's not. As I addressed multiple times above, even though you keep repeating it, hoping it'll stick, Jews does not necessarily mean remnant!

Spoiler

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​