Questioning godrulz...
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When exactly will Hitler come to his senses? You must believe in a second chance after death, contrary to Heb. 9:27.
The beast, false prophet, and Satan are seen in eternity in the lake of fire with those who were not in the Book of Life. Their torment goes on forever and ever. This is not a picture of universal redemption
logos_x
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It is the idea that he NEVER will...in all of eternity, that is problematic
I do believe in judgement and that it is to corrective action, yes. This is not contrary to Heb 9:27.
They are sentenced to the punishent of the Ages...yes.
Their torment goes on forever and ever. This is not a picture of universal redemption
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur (eis tēn limnēn tou puros kai theiou) where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture (βασανίζω basanizo Thayer Definition:1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous tone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind. Part of Speech: verb) until the Ages of the Ages (eis tous aiōnas ton aiōnōn).
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and One who was seated on it, from whose presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing in front of the throne. And books were opened; and so was another book--namely, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged by the things recorded in the books in accordance with what their conduct had been.
Rev 20:13 Then the sea yielded up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades yielded up the dead who were in them, and each man was judged in accordance with what his conduct had been.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death--the Lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any one's name was not found recorded in the Book of Life he was thrown into the Lake of fire.
In the universal salvation view, the "lake of fire" is used by God to purify...destroying all sin, hell, and even death itself eventually. It is "the punishment of the Ages" and is "eternal" only in the sense that it continues until the job is done.
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Let's start with a truth. Those in Christ are no longer sinners. Because our identity is in Him, and in Him there is no sin. Those sins we commit are not committed by our spirits, but our flesh. And our flesh is not redeeemed. never will be. Our spirits are redeeemed, and are in Christ. And our spirits do not sin. And once they are in Christ, they can not be seperated, because He can not deny himself.Originally posted by godrulz
Summary:
2 proposed options to explain why all sin:
i) We sin because we are born sinners.
This is the Augustinian Federal Headship of Adam THEORY of original sin (Catholic, Reformed). It says there is something causative back of the will that makes us sin. This genetic substance theory lacks biblical support. Stealing, murder, adultery, etc. are volitional sins. If we all have this Adamic nature, we could blame things on him and all should be doing these things (which they are not).
ii) We are sinners because we sin.
We are born with physical depravity that gives us a propensity to living for the desires of the flesh over the glory of God. We all suffer the physical consequences of the Fall (death, sickness, etc.). Our sinful nature is formed as we continually chose the flesh and selfish, rebellious things. One sin makes us a sinner. This is moral depravity. Choices cannot be passed on from others. They originate in the will (hence we are not born morally depraved, but innocent...until we sin). Every human eventually (and from an early age) actualizes that which is potential at birth. We are responsible for sin and selfishness because of our wills that do not have to chose evil (free moral agency). Even if we did not overtly break the Commandments, our hearts, thoughts, and motives condemn us. No one seeks God and His glory. We all need a Savior. Kingdom of Self rules until the Spirit convinces, convicts, and draws us to the rightful King of kings, and Lord of lords, Jesus Christ.
In either view, the end is the same: we are all sinners and are universally condemned and in need of redemption.
Harmartiology (views on the nature of sin) is a non-salvific issue. Godly, capable scholars and grass root believers can hold to either theory of why all men sin. The latter view is more defensible from Scripture, since sin is portrayed as lawlessness and selfish, rebellious choices, not a substance passed down from Adam that we would not be responsible for.
I think it is more appropriate to discuss views on their own merits (as we have on other open, topical threads). To put an individual on the chopping block to be judged by self-proclaimed judges lacks maturity and integrity. However, I can play the game since you feel I am such a threat to the flock
No one answered my riddle about who Adrian's turtles were in Rocky.
Answer: Cuff and Link
Let's call sozo Cuff, since he is the lead prosecutor.
Lighthouse can be Link, since that is an alliteration
This is the next step of the nature of salvation. The nature of sin is also foundational.
We are saints, not sinners
If I commit adultery, I cannot say it is my flesh doing it so I have no responsibility. The act of adultery is a sin. Sin is volitional, whether as a believer or an unbeliever. It also involves the lust of the mind. You cannot blame it on Adam, the devil, or the flesh. We must take responsibility for our own actions. If we can blame the flesh, then there is no reason not to commit adultery, to stop committing it, or to not keep on dabbling in it.
Paul said that we can do good or bad with our bodies. Our spirits and wills express themselves through our bodies. If we misuse our wills, this puts us in the flesh. Flesh is inanimate without the will. It cannot think, sin, act, feel, etc. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not a physical entity causing us to be a disjointed being with multiple personalities.
Chileice
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Originally posted by godrulz
When exactly will Hitler come to his senses? You must believe in a second chance after death, contrary to Heb. 9:27.
The beast, false prophet, and Satan are seen in eternity in the lake of fire with those who were not in the Book of Life. Their torment goes on forever and ever. This is not a picture of universal redemption
I think this is the $1000000 question for those who are universalists. I also think that this question allowed for the rise of purgatory among Catholics. What happens to those who obviously reject God's advances and his grace? Either we have to say:
1. They will be saved anyway. That tends to negate any and all human activity and moral/religious effort. It also seems to negate the existence of evil.
2. They will be punished but later saved by some means:
a. their own merits through post-life activities,
b. the mrits of others like righteous people praying for the dead,
c. some religious service that "undoes what they did (or didn't do) on earth-- like Mormon baptism for the dead.
3. They were predestined to be damned no matter what they did anyway. So their life really doesn't matter other than to cause grief for the elect while they are alive.
4. Or they have the chance to accept the free gift of God in Christ Jesus while alive or they can reject it and face post-life consecuences for their refusal to accept that which God freely offered.
God is a God of grace, but not of coersion. It certainly makes me FEEL better top thionk that everyone will be in heaven, but it doesn't square with the scriptures. The following two passages come to mind off the top of my head:
We all have gone astray, but he will justify many... not all. Because not all will want the Mesiah as their own. Nothing seems more plain in the reading of John. Many accepted Him. But along the way, others hardened their hearts in rejection. Will God thrust salvation upon them anyway? If so, why in the WORLD would he have sent his son to die such a hideous death if everyone could be justified without Him?
Again we see the efficacy of the sacrifice once for all, yet not ALL will be saved. He will bear the sins of MANY in the judgement, which leaves us with option 3 or option 4. I really don't think the Bible as a whole supports option 3. I can't imagine God just inventing a race of the damned to live and die and suffer in hell just to make the elect feel special. So I think the Bible leaves us with option 4. ALL CAN be saved. But not all WILL be saved.
Sozo
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Originally posted by godrulz
This is the next step of the nature of salvation. The nature of sin is also foundational.
We are saints, not sinners
If I commit adultery, I cannot say it is my flesh doing it so I have no responsibility. The act of adultery is a sin. Sin is volitional, whether as a believer or an unbeliever. It also involves the lust of the mind. You cannot blame it on Adam, the devil, or the flesh. We must take responsibility for our own actions. If we can blame the flesh, then there is no reason not to commit adultery, to stop committing it, or to not keep on dabbling in it.
Paul said that we can do good or bad with our bodies. Our spirits and wills express themselves through our bodies. If we misuse our wills, this puts us in the flesh. Flesh is inanimate without the will. It cannot think, sin, act, feel, etc. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not a physical entity causing us to be a disjointed being with multiple personalities.
Paul affirms that you are NOT "in the flesh". (Rom 7:5), (Rom 8:9).
However, Paul also says that we are "in the flesh" (2 Cor. 10:3), (Phi 1:22-24)
Is Paul making a contradiction? Not at all! He is simply revealing the truth concerning the relationship that you have with God, and the suffering that takes place in this life while you await the redemption (exchange) of your body for a new one. (Romans 8:18-25)
First of all Paul makes it clear that we have been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), (Gal 2:20), (Gal 5:24), (Gal 6:14). Therefore, we have died with Him (Rom 6:8), (Rom 7:6), (Col 2:20), (Col 3:3), (2 Tim 2:11). And we are no longer who we once were (1 Cor 6:11), (2 Cor 5:17), (Eph 4:24), (Col 3:10).
Those who are "in Christ" have been circumcised from the flesh (Col 2:11). So even though you still live on in the flesh, you no longer have a relationship with God according to the flesh. The flesh is dead to God, because you are now alive in the Spirit. And it is through the Spirit alone that you are in fellowship with God.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
Paul describes perfectly what we as belevers go through while remaining in these dead bodies, and yet knowing that we are in fact alive in the spirit.
Romans 7:5-6
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter
When you and I were bound to the Law, sin was aroused in our flesh bearing the fruit of death. Why? Because the only thing that your flesh can produce is that which is contrary to the Law. In Galatians 5, Paul describes the deeds of the flesh that are aroused through the Law: "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these". (Paul adds "things like these" just in case godrulz had the notion to believe that he is not doing any of the things he actually listed ). Paul makes it clear that we are not bound to or under the Law, and that we now serve Christ in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.
Romans 7:7-8
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
The Law was given to reveal to each of us that we have sin. Why? Because sin is the indicator that you are dead to God, and in need of life. The Law shows you that you are dead; it leads you to life (Gal 3:22-26). However, once you have received life, you are dead to the Law, and alive to God.
Galatians 2:19
"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:9-11
And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul refers to the 10 Commandments as the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation".
Jesus was born under the Law (Gal 4:4) and He used the Law to bring death and condemnation to all who believed that they were righteous through observing the Law...
"And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".
And again...
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart"
Any notion that people had that they were righteous under the Law was laid to rest through Jesus ability to prove that it is impossible for men to have eternal life through the Law. As Paul affirms:
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 3:21-22
"Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:12-13
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Again we see that Paul confirms the purpose of the Law, to reveal how completely unrighteous we are, and that we are dead to God.
Paul continues...
Romans 7:14-16
"For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good."
Paul shows the struggle of his desire to do that which agrees with the Law, and yet, because of his flesh, he is only able to do those things that are contrary to the Law.... the very deeds of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21).
Paul continues...
Romans 7:17-21
"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good."
Paul makes certain to let the reader know that the flesh is incapable of doing good, even though he wishes it was so. And claims that he indeed practices evil, because it is present in his flesh, and will continue to be so (as noted in Rom 8) until it has been redeemed. Please note also that John makes it clear in 1 John 3:8 that " the one who practices sin is of the devil". Yet Paul affirms that his flesh practices sin. Is Paul of the devil? No, but his flesh is, because it is dead to God.
Romans 7:22-23
"For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."
"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"
Paul concludes that he is trapped by his desire to do good, and the fact that his body has indwelling sin which wages war against him, and he pleads to be set free!
Paul has good news...
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Even though Paul has this desire to do good and that he is bound to the flesh that has indwelling sin, he can give thanks to Christ who has set him free from this body of death, and he is no longer under the condemnation of the Law.
Romans 8:1-2
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."
We have been crucified with Christ, circumcised from the flesh, made alive in the spirit, and set free from sin and death.
Romans 8:3-4
"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
As we have already seen, the Law could not impart life, nor make anyone righteous. Therefore, God sent His Son to condemn (put an end to) sin in our flesh, so that the Law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit!
We are made fulfillers of the Law through Christ's life, not because we can now keep it through behavior modification, but because we have died with Him, and we now share in His life through the indwelling of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5-8
"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
What are the "things of the flesh" that one would set their minds on. And what are the "things of the Spirit". We just read in Chapter 7 that when Paul set his mind on the flesh he found that in Him dwelt no good thing and that he has no choice but to practice the very evil that he does not wish. Paul knows that the mind set on the flesh can only bring forth death, because it is subject to the Law of God, and the result is a revelation of sin. But, the mind set on the Spirit has peace, because it is no longer under the condemnation of the Law, since it is alive. The flesh can never please God, because it can never obey the Law, and is hostile toward God at all times.
Romans 8:9-10
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."
Nobody said we weren't responsible you moron! Stop implying that we are, in an effort to discredit us, because you can't argue with what we actually do say! It's tired! And stop confusing skin with flesh in these conversations! You know that isn't what I meant! You're asinine! There are two natures within Christians: the nature of the flesh, and the nature of Christ. The nature of flesh is not identified with Christ. Get that through your thick skull, and maybe we can move on.Originally posted by godrulz
This is the next step of the nature of salvation. The nature of sin is also foundational.
We are saints, not sinners
If I commit adultery, I cannot say it is my flesh doing it so I have no responsibility. The act of adultery is a sin. Sin is volitional, whether as a believer or an unbeliever. It also involves the lust of the mind. You cannot blame it on Adam, the devil, or the flesh. We must take responsibility for our own actions. If we can blame the flesh, then there is no reason not to commit adultery, to stop committing it, or to not keep on dabbling in it.
Paul said that we can do good or bad with our bodies. Our spirits and wills express themselves through our bodies. If we misuse our wills, this puts us in the flesh. Flesh is inanimate without the will. It cannot think, sin, act, feel, etc. Flesh is a metaphor for sin, not a physical entity causing us to be a disjointed being with multiple personalities.
godrulz said:
I hope your ears are virgin.
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Mr. Coffee
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Sorry I'm so late getting back into this thread, Godrulz.godrulz said:
We were shut out of Paradise before we were born, because of Adam's transgression. Adam and Eve are gone, but the flaming sword is still there. The angel hasn't stopped to hear cases.
But there is a Biblical category for degrees of punishment. And at the great white throne judgement (Rev. 20), we are judged on the basis of what we've done.
Which brings me to infants. Persons who have never committed intentional, volitional acts are inculpable in this sense. Their inherited sin-nature offends the purity of God, but the majority view in Calvinism is that this is propitiated at the cross and their salvation is assumed.
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