We just can’t believe that this even happened with a young kid like this. Sure, I could see where the whole 'death penalty for minors' idea is a hard sell; that's when you're still small, trying to figure right from wrong. I believe that instead, we should primarily address why these types of things occur at all. Punishing all we can, if we don’t get to the root of the cause, we may not see gains.
Properly Enforcing the Death Penalty
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
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Well, investigating the root causes of such things is all fine and good but one of the primary purposes of a criminal justice system is about preventing crime from happening in the first place. Investigating the whys and the wherefores is a terrific academic exercises but in regards to maintaining a civil society, it isn't necessary to know the cause of the crime but merely to apply the appropriate response and so, to a very great degree, the reason why such things happen is precisely because these things are not punished appropriately. If you have a four year old child that throws temper tantrums, it is because you failed to properly discipline the child two years prior when he threw his first tantrum. The same principle applies to how a society is to respond to criminal behavior.
The question then becomes, what is the appropriate response? Thankfully, God has left us with a quite complete criminal justice system within the pages of the Bible. Some of the laws contained therein have to do with religious ritual and practices and would have no application outside the context of the nation of Israel and the special relationship they enjoyed with God at the time, but the rest of it deals with just regular criminal activity and teaches us how to rightly deal with criminality of all sorts including everything from simple accidents and negligence to intentional crimes such as theft, rape, adultery and murder.
I submit that we are not going to figure out a system that is more effective or in any other way wiser than that which God gave to Moses, and that people should, at the very least, make themselves familiar with that system before even proposing anything else.
In what way, if any, does the age of accountability play into your position on this?
I think God will do rightly on that side of the river. But punishments for crime must still occur.
"Your eye shall not pity, life shall be for life."
It happened.
Even a cursory glance at the article and linked pages would tell you that.
It normally wouldn't be a problem.
This is just how far our society has collapsed.
Threats to society should not be tolerated.
Clete addressed this sufficiently, and I agree with him. We are not able to come up with a better justice system than God's.
If God doesn’t hold someone accountable for sin solely because of their age, why wouldn’t we apply the same logic and avoid holding them accountable for crimes?
Is there any biblical precedent for the government punishing children for crimes?
Should the parents be held responsible for crimes committed by their young children?
The answer is three-fold:
1) Because we're not God, and don't have authority to not punish criminals. God forbade judges from showing mercy to those who commit crimes.
2) Because NOT doing so teaches the child that he can get away with his actions.
3) Because NOT doing so turns the child into a threat to society, which is specifically addressed, "you shall put away the evil from among you."
Consider the following scenario:
A mentally retarded man who has the mind of a child and who has occasional seizures accidentally hits his caretaker, so that she falls over, hits her head on the table, and breaks her neck, killing her instantly. You know that the man is innocent, because it's accidental.
Now, take the same two people, and instead of him accidentally hitting her, he gets mad at her and pushes her out the window of their apartment, where she falls three stories to her death. He should be put to death, despite his mental retardation, because he intentionally pushed her out the window.
Consider also that many criminals lately have been deemed "unfit for trial," and this is a direct result of not punishing all criminals, regardless of their mental status.
NO ONE is above the law, not even the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, not even children, let alone your average criminal.
The idea of not punishing criminals simply because they are "unfit" for the punishment has consequences.
Not to my knowledge. However, the absoluteness of the command to put the murderer to death, and to punish those who attempt crime the same as though they were successful. In other words, God did not make exceptions for children when He prescribed punishments for crimes.
The child fully intended to kill his teacher, therefore he should be put to death, even though he was ultimately unsuccessful.
Not for the crimes the children committed, no, that would be unjust, as per Ezekiel 18.
But for their own actions (or failure to act), with regards to raising their children properly, yes.
Obviously, if we lived in a just and Godly society, there wouldn't be public schools, and children wouldn't become criminals. But if somehow the parents were to be prosecuted, deadly negligence charges would be appropriate (which is also a death penalty offence, according to the Bible).
I'd have to say that I agree with pretty much every syllable of this.
It's turning out that one of the best things I've discovered so far about ChatGPT is that it is a terrifically powerful bible study tool. Just out of curiosity, I asked it the following question...
"Are there any examples of, or allusions to, children being executed in the bible for having committed a crime?"
Here's it's response....
Yes, there are a few references in the Bible that mention the deaths of children under contexts involving judgment or consequences, though they don’t always specify that the children themselves directly committed a crime deserving of execution.
Here are some examples:
- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – This passage addresses a “stubborn and rebellious son” who refuses to obey his parents despite repeated discipline. The parents are instructed to bring the son to the town elders, who may order his execution by stoning if he is found incorrigible. However, this is not explicitly shown to have been carried out in any narrative, and it may have served as a serious warning rather than a common practice.
- 2 Kings 2:23-24 – This passage recounts an incident where young boys mock the prophet Elisha. In response, he curses them, and two bears come out of the forest and maul 42 of the children. While not technically a judicial execution, it’s presented as divine retribution for disrespecting a prophet.
- Joshua 7 – After Achan’s sin (taking forbidden spoils during the conquest of Jericho), he and his entire family are executed. The text implies that Achan’s household suffered consequences for his sin, though it does not clarify if his children were involved in or aware of his actions.
- Exodus 21:15, 17 and Leviticus 20:9 – These laws state that anyone who strikes or curses their parents shall be put to death. These passages could imply that if children were to do so, they could face execution. However, there are no narrative examples of this punishment being carried out.
These references emphasize obedience and respect within family and community, though the specific instances of children being executed or punished for their own direct offenses are rare and often framed as warnings or examples.
Any time Chat GPT says "Here are some examples:" it means that it isn't giving you what it thinks is the complete list and so I asked, "Any additional examples?" It responded with the following....
Certainly, here are a few more examples where children face punishment, often as part of broader judgments:
- The Death of the Firstborn in Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30) – During the final plague in Egypt, all the Egyptian firstborn children are killed. While this is a divine judgment on Pharaoh and Egypt for enslaving the Israelites and refusing to let them go, it includes the deaths of children who were not directly guilty but were affected by the judgment.
- The Canaanite Conquest (Deuteronomy 20:16-18) – In certain cities, God commands the Israelites to destroy every living being, including children, as part of their conquest of Canaan. This judgment is presented as a way to prevent Israel from adopting the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites, though it results in the deaths of children alongside adults.
- 2 Samuel 12:13-18 – After King David’s sin with Bathsheba and his arrangement for her husband Uriah’s death, God pronounces that David’s child with Bathsheba will die as a consequence. Although the child did not commit any offense, he suffers the penalty as part of David’s judgment.
- The Family of Korah (Numbers 16:27-33) – When Korah leads a rebellion against Moses and Aaron, he and his household are swallowed by the earth. The text implies that his family was included in the judgment, though they may not have participated in the rebellion. However, in Numbers 26:11, it notes that "the sons of Korah did not die," suggesting some of his descendants were spared.
- Jeremiah 19:3-9 – In this prophecy, God declares that because of the people of Judah’s idolatry and child sacrifices, they will face a severe judgment in which children will suffer. Although it’s a future warning rather than a recorded event, it suggests a principle where children suffer in collective punishment for the sins of the community.
These instances reflect the concept of collective responsibility or inherited consequences in the Old Testament, where judgment sometimes affected entire families or groups.
It seems clear that some of the examples it gives don't apply but I just find it stunning that it can produce such a response in mere moments. If I had researched this on my own, I would not have found half of those references if I had spent six hours, fully concentrated on the search. I mean, referencing seven verses from Numbers 16! That's just cheating!
At any rate, I think the main point here is the one you made right off the bat in your answer to my question. We are not God and don't have the authority to decide what the punishment for a crime should be. It is our place to carry out God's commands, not to question them. Which, incidentally, is a major part of why judges are not to show mercy. It's as much about teaching the society about right and wrong and about the importance of obedience and submission to God and His commands as it is about punishing a crime. Executing a six year old would be all but impossible for any but the most devout society to do and, in such a society, there would almost certainly never be a need to actually do it. It's as if the willingness to do it makes it so that it never has to be done.
And therein lies the real wisdom of God's criminal justice system. It sounds super harsh but it's actually mercy. Societies that execute capitals criminals have almost no capital crime! Not because they've killed all the people that might commit such crimes but because just laws produce a just society in which children are raised in safety, by both parents and then grow up to have self-esteem and thus they esteem their neighbor and aren't trying to escape miserable lives by getting high on drugs, stealing stuff, having sex with strangers and killing people.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For His thoughts are not as our thoughts, nor His ways as our ways. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are His ways higher than our ways, and His thoughts than our thoughts. (Romans 11:33 & Isaiah 55:8-9)
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ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Forgive me if I missed it but don't forget the Flood
True but, as is the case for some of the things Chat GPT listed, that doesn't seem to fit. I was looking for instances where children were punished by the government for having committed a crime.
I don't think there is any question about the fact that God has the absolute right to bring anyone from this life to the next at any point in time and for any reason. Our physical death, after all, is just the end of a most temporary and vanishingly brief part of our existence.
This here.
When God tells us to bring criminals to justice, He is exercising that right. To add to what you said:
God has the absolute right to bring anyone from this life to the next at any point in time and for any reason and through any means He deems fit.
Be that through a flood.
Be that through a government.
Be that through an angel of death.
Be that through the actions of men, yes, even if they're wicked.
I agree except that I'd say that the reason He chooses may limit the means He can then choose.
For example, God cannot rightly bring my six month old grandson from this life to the next by my hand, nor could God enlist a righteous man to commit mass murder in order to bring some evil person before His throne.
And so, the "through any means He deems fit" would not include fundamentally unjust means, which should go without saying because God would never choose such means, but you never know who might be reading these posts so its good to clarify such things.
Good point.