Predestination vs Chosen people

[Myrrhcask]

I'm new, so I can't use the search feature to see if this question has been discussed previously. And I don't have the time to page through thousands of threads.
It has bothered me for a long while that much, if not all, of the basis for belief in the predestination of the individual soul may simply be a misinterpretation of scriptures which more properly describe the fact that God has always planned to have a chosen people. The misinterpretation stems from an early council decision to remove Jewish thought from the church, I'm speaking of the council of Nicea. But without Jewish understanding, we lose the context that we are all part of a chosen people. Gentile believers have been grafted into a preexisting chosen people.
Has anyone done a study that treats actual proof texts which have been misconstrued as a result of this dejewification doctrine?

 

[Squeaky]

PREDESTINATION (CHRISTIANITY IS WHAT IS PRE-DESTINED)

Rom 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Heb 5:7-10
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
Jude 1:1-2
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
II Th 1:11-12
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Eph 1:2-12
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-- in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:21
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
2 Cor 3:17
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Gal 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Gal 3:19-20
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Jude 1:4
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
P.S. Jesus is the only individual that was predestined. Christianity is predestination. When you read the Word, and believe it. Then that makes you a Christian, and if you believe? your going to do what it says. Now to understand that the Word is talking to those who believe it. This is how faith grows. Faith is your spiritual strength that you get from believing the Word. And what is predestined is Christianity more than each individual. If you have read the old testament, You should see that God called for the first born, but yet blessed the second born. All the famous people in the old testament had an older brother. Christ was the first to be the first born in a family that was glorious(pleasing God). And the new testament is the second born of the testaments, but the one excepted by God as being right. Christianity is what was predestined, because God had it in His heart
to send His Son after man messed the Word up. Christ was the only One that
God foreknew and predestined. The New Testament was what God predestined
and we who believe it and obey it. So when it says He knew you, He is talking of you as a Christian.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(NKJ)
The only One that God foreknew was Jesus. Jesus was conformed to the image of a Son of God. He was the firstborn among many followers.

 

[Myrrhcask]

Thanks for the response. There is a lot there, not much of which is not clear to me. But, let me start with this.

Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I am trying to understand, so let me substitute referents in the above sentence.
So, (whom He/God foreknew) you say means Jesus.
(His Son) is also Jesus. Then the sentence would read:
For Jesus, He/God predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus, that He/Jesus might be the firstborn among many brethren.
But how could Jesus be conformed to his own image? He obviously is not an image of himself. What would that even mean, to be conformed to one's own image?

Do you mean Jesus was not always God's son but had to be made into one? I hope not, since that sounds like heresy. I can't go there. It also would contradict the voice of God that said to Jesus, "You are my son with whom I am well pleased." But, what am I missing?

 

[Squeaky]

Christianity is what was predestined. That is the people that would be conformed to be like Jesus.

 

[Myrrhcask]

"Christianity is what was predestined."

If by Christianity you mean the modern continuance and redemptive expression of the household of faith begun with Abraham, I can agree. The redemption of Israel, all Israel, has always been the goal. The one new man, so to speak. But for too many, Christianity has come to mean a new religion which they contrast to pre-rabbinic Abrahamic faith--which is to ignore Romans 11 where it is clear that the root supports the branches--both native and grafted--and not the other way around.

So, I think we agree that something other than individual predestination is intended--something more like a people for God, however we refer to them.

 

[Squeaky]

"Christianity is what was predestined."

If by Christianity you mean the modern continuance and redemptive expression of the household of faith begun with Abraham, I can agree. The redemption of Israel, all Israel, has always been the goal. The one new man, so to speak. But for too many, Christianity has come to mean a new religion which they contrast to pre-rabbinic Abrahamic faith--which is to ignore Romans 11 where it is clear that the root supports the branches--both native and grafted--and not the other way around.

So, I think we agree that something other than individual predestination is intended--something more like a people for God, however we refer to them.

I said
There might be a little misunderstanding here. The message Jesus brought to the Jews was a Change. They rejected it so God gave it to the Gentiles. Now I love the Jews but if they don't conform to Jesus they will be left back.

[Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[Heb 7:12, 18
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. ...
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

The question is will they be called back to be Christians or Jews???


[Jhn 10:1-2, 7-8
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. ...
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

 

[Myrrhcask]

I said
There might be a little misunderstanding here. The message Jesus brought to the Jews was a Change. They rejected it so God have it to the Gentiles. Now I love the Jews but if they don't conform to Jesus they will be left back.

[Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[Heb 7:12, 18
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. ...
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

The question is will they be called back to be Christians or Jews???


[Jhn 10:1-2, 7-8
1 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. ...
7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Yes, Jesus is the only way, for both jew and gentile. But I have to disagree that Jesus brought a changed, or different, message. Everything he said and did was prefigured in the OT and his mission was planned out from the foundation of the Earth. I don't think God changed His mind midstream and decided to do something else. The only change I can agree with is that some things that were hidden, or at least misunderstood, before Jesus became revealed. But not everything is revealed even now, hence Paul's comment about seeing through a glass darkly.

I guess my concern is that we not forget that God made everlasting covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and the descendants of Israel--covenants he said he would never forsake. It is because of his faithfulness to those covenants that we can have confidence in Him, since he has grafted us also into the people he called to be his chosen people.

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[daqq]

Yes, Jesus is the only way, for both jew and gentile. But I have to disagree that Jesus brought a changed, or different, message. Everything he said and did was prefigured in the OT and his mission was planned out from the foundation of the Earth. I don't think God changed His mind midstream and decided to do something else. The only change I can agree with is that some things that were hidden, or at least misunderstood, before Jesus became revealed. But not everything is revealed even now, hence Paul's comment about seeing through a glass darkly.

I guess my concern is that we not forget that God made everlasting covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and the descendants of Israel--covenants he said he would never forsake. It is because of his faithfulness to those covenants that we can have confidence in Him, since he has grafted us also into the people he called to be his chosen people.

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Perhaps it is like so:

The Seed of Abraham is multiplied as the stars of the heavens, (Gen15:5, 22:17). The "stars" multiply by consuming the Seed of the Word, (Luke 8:11, Jhn 6:32-63). If therefore one consumes the Seed of the Word, and believes, retains, and faithfully walks in the Word, then the same becomes like a star, that is to say, a star is born: and the stars are likened to the Seed of Abraham. If therefore you are becoming a star, (and if Messiah is being formed in you), the no doubt you are chosen-predestined in the Seed of the Word before the foundation of the kosmos, (Gen2:1 LXX, Jhn17:24, Eph1:4, 1Pet1:20), for He made the stars in Gen1:16 and all things in that passage are cut-down-created and made IN ARCHE, (Reshith/Roshith, the Head, Gen1:1). :idunno:

 

[oatmeal]

To be "predestined" is a poor English word to translate the Greek

It implies that God is forcing people or predetermining who will be believers.

There is the exact opposite of the meaning of the Greek word and God's intent.

God, having foreknowledge, foreknows who will, in the future, choose to believe.

God, thus knowing who will in the future choose to believe can "mark out beforehand" those will will choose to believe.

It is not a difficult concept.

If you are going to purchase a new car, for instance, you might do some homework prior to your actual journeys to a car lot. You might mark out beforehand which cars best meet your predetermined criteria.

God chose those who He foreknew would believe and marked them out beforehand. How else could he assign "guardian angels" to protect those if he did not know who would eventually believe?

God not only has foreknowledge, but as I like to refer to it as, He as fore wisdom and fore discerning of spirits.

 

[Squeaky]

Yes, Jesus is the only way, for both jew and gentile. But I have to disagree that Jesus brought a changed, or different, message. Everything he said and did was prefigured in the OT and his mission was planned out from the foundation of the Earth. I don't think God changed His mind midstream and decided to do something else. The only change I can agree with is that some things that were hidden, or at least misunderstood, before Jesus became revealed. But not everything is revealed even now, hence Paul's comment about seeing through a glass darkly.

I guess my concern is that we not forget that God made everlasting covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and the descendants of Israel--covenants he said he would never forsake. It is because of his faithfulness to those covenants that we can have confidence in Him, since he has grafted us also into the people he called to be his chosen people.

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I said
He did make them covenants. But it was the people not God who broke them covenants. Which released God from His part of the covenant. A covenant is a contract between two parties. And if one doesn't keep their part of the contract the other is released from their part.

[Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[Heb 7:12, 18
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. ...
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,

 

[daqq]

I'm new, so I can't use the search feature to see if this question has been discussed previously. And I don't have the time to page through thousands of threads.
It has bothered me for a long while that much, if not all, of the basis for belief in the predestination of the individual soul may simply be a misinterpretation of scriptures which more properly describe the fact that God has always planned to have a chosen people. The misinterpretation stems from an early council decision to remove Jewish thought from the church, I'm speaking of the council of Nicea. But without Jewish understanding, we lose the context that we are all part of a chosen people. Gentile believers have been grafted into a preexisting chosen people.
Has anyone done a study that treats actual proof texts which have been misconstrued as a result of this dejewification doctrine?

This is where the separation began in earnest:
Google these: "Fourteenthers", aka, "Quartodecimans", (quarto decimani).

Wiki: Quartodecimanism
T. Alex Tennent: The Jewish Disconnect and the Fourteenthers - The Messianic Feast

Though I do not agree with all that T. Alex Tennent has to say, I have spoken with him a ways back, (at a different forum), and he does seem to have a good understanding of this subject matter. In other words I may not agree with his timing of the crucifixion, but that is not what you are asking about: he does however understand the critical importance of the events surrounding the dispute between the Church and the "Fourteenthers", (and that is indeed related to what you are asking about).