lesjude:
All right, you don't want to answer my question, that's fine. Thanks for sharing your views.
All right, you don't want to answer my question, that's fine. Thanks for sharing your views.
Theology Club: Predestination, Election and Freewill and the Sovereignty of God
- Thread starter lesjude
- Start date
Can one be sovereign in the earth when ones will is NOT being done?
Jesus taught us through prayer that God will is NOT yet being done in the earth.
Thy kingdom come , thy will be done on earth ......
Obviously Jesus did not believe God was sovereign in the earth
God's predestined plan includes ALL the freewill choices people make. People do what is in their hearts which was there before the foundation of the world. God NEVER has to adapt and manipulate people or events to bring His purposes to pass.
You do not know how your child will choose so therefore you have to react. God's plan does not have variables from His side that He has to adapt to or change things to serve His purposes. If He did He is not sovereign therefore not God. All make freewill choices from hearts that they were God given before the world was created.
If you wish to criticize God for this please consider Romans 9:13-24. God is always kind to all as the Bible says. If God cannot sovereignly do as He sees fit with His creation then He is not God. He is not subject to man's opinions or understanding of "fairness".
He is an active God who trains His people and cares for them just as Jesus demonstrated by healing, delivering, protecting, and teaching them. He also restrains evil because Satan can do NOTHING to incite his children to evil, come against God's saints, or cause "natural" disasters unless he is given permission. God actively sustains the whole universe and everything in it. He clearly shows His existence to ALL through creation. People by their own choice are either a child of the evil one or of God. Jesus said you do not come to me because you will not to.
One must make a distinction between "accepting" Jesus and receiving Him. He accepts us, we receive Him. One can say the sinner's prayer accepting Christianity as their religion, agree with the Bible, join a "church" and follow their program. That is NOT salvation.
Salvation is a change on the inside of a person and only those who have received Christ's great gift of salvation know that they know they have it. Fear gone, guilt gone, God's kind of love in your heart, by grace through faith and His mercy living His commands with a willingness to submit to His loving training to do it. You do not do these things to be saved or stay saved but because you are saved. You were elected and predestined to receive Him before the foundation of the Earth drawn by the Father's effectual grace. When people decided by a freewill choice not to follow Jesus He told them after their decision why they could not. See John 6:60-71. Most would say this was "unloving".
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. God gave us freedom to choose good OR evil. He commands us to choose good, but he has given us the freedom to do otherwise.
This question doesn’t make sense. Can you reword it?
It makes as much sense as freewill does, if you forbid someone something [and to partake of and become evil is no small forbid] they have no freewill do they. Moreover God warned them that the most dire consequences would follow on if Adam disobeyed, consequences over which Adam had no say in whatever.
Adam could choose, choice is not freewill. For if he chose life...it is Go's sovereign will that he should live. If he chose death... it is God's sovereign will that he should die.
Freewill would be if Adam could disobey but refuse to die...that is what man desires and what does God not allow.
Now we are not free [outside Christ] we are, Paul everywhere tells us, IN BONDAGE to sin and to death. That is why Jesus came for to set us free.
I essence "freewill" is just another name for how men choose to disobey God. Here is why "freewill" is not or should not be an issue for a disciple of Jesus:
Romans 12:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
AND:
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[a] and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Romans 12:1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Living Sacrifices to God
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
AND:
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[a] and in your spirit, which are God’s.
You see, now this makes no sense to me at all. I have no idea how that would work. Can you explain it? How can there be freedom to make choices when the choices are predestined?
Again, makes zero sense to me. If I didn’t have a physical body in which a heart dwells before the foundation of the world, how can anything be in it?
Sure sounds like it in Scripture. And what if He does adapt? What does that do to YOUR idea of God?
If I’m infinite, I wouldn’t have to “react” at all. I’d know every single possible choice he could ever make and I’d be infinitely prepared for each choice he makes as if it were his only choice to make.
Your definition of sovereign doesn’t seem to match God’s definition of sovereign. God CHOSE to accomplish His purpose in coordination with, or in spite of, His free will agents.
Again, no idea what this could possibly mean. We weren’t alive before the world was created, so there’s no way God gave us a heart. No body, no heart.
What’s Romans 9 have to do with this discussion? God chose the nation of Israel for service to Him over the nation of Edom, before either did anything good or bad. So?
Okay??
Right…I know, one prelude to one story and suddenly it becomes the reigning example of how God runs the entire universe. Sorry, I don’t buy it. God does not will in any way the doings of the wicked, angels or otherwise. The purpose of Job’s prologue was to show how little we humans know about the goings on of the spiritual world and that what goes on in the physical realm is impacted by the spiritual realm.
Okay.
No one individual was predestined before the foundation of the earth to receive salvation, if so, Scripture stating exactly THAT, please.
I agree that the Father opens a man’s heart to believe in the gospel of Christ (Acts 16:14). However, Scripture also reveals that the Father chooses men who are humble and contrite in heart. There is a basis for His choice.
It’s not unloving. Those people didn’t believe in the gospel because the Father didn’t open their hearts to it, but He didn’t open their hearts to it because they were not humble and contrite.
Adam had no say whatsoever in the consequences. In that, he had no freedom to choose otherwise, but that's a case of something happening to Adam and not something Adam chose to do himself. For example, Adam had say in whether he’d obey God or not obey God. Adam had freedom to choose to do something or not do something.
I understand free will to mean the freedom to make choices that are not determined by another.
I think our freedom is limited in that sense. For example, I choose to not get cancer. Well, I have no freedom of choice in that case, because that's a case of something happening to me; it's not something I can choose to do or not do.
We freely placed ourselves in bondage--we chose to do something, to sin. No, we can’t get ourselves out after that, because after we enter into sin, the consequences have already taken effect. The consequence, remember, is something that happens to us. We have no control over that.
First Jesus is God. His will IS being done. However He gives His saints the privilege to pray.
Yes, His will is being done because he has His elect praying predestined prayers He put in our hearts before we were formed in the womb. He responds to those prayers and His will is done. It is called intercession. Every believer has a ministry to do God's will everywhere he goes.
Here it is in scripture:
Ephesians 2:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Here are some specific "good works" or His will being done on earth in response to predestined prayers.
Believing intercession/prayer which is a free will choice from our side but predestined from God's side brings God's predestined will in every instance to pass.
Mark 16:17-18
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[a] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Matthew 9:37-38
New King James Version (NKJV)
37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”
If we do not know His will in an area then we should pray in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit knows and prays through us God's perfect will.
Romans 8:26
New King James Version (NKJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[a] with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The Bible says God is sovereign, and though His actions are not dependent upon the actions of men in that He does not have to be; He is sovereign enough to decide to respond to us if He desires.
How could they choose if God already decided for them (i.e. choices were prededestined)?
Again, it’s not their choice since it was already decided for them (i.e. choices were predestined).
Since it’s impossible for a person to exist before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4 doesn’t mean I did exist before the foundation of the world. It must mean something else.
So, like I said, if I didn’t have a physical body in which a heart dwells before the foundation of the world, how can anything be in it?
That’s according to YOUR idea of God. God, apparently has a different idea of what it means to be sovereign. God is sovereign and at the same time God adapts, interacts, and responds to His free will creatures (as seen in Scripture). You’re not okay with God deciding what it means to be sovereign?
I’m not certain what kind of God you think we serve. Is God capable of reacting to men at all? Can God not respond with mercy, anger, or grief to man? Scripture shows that God is affected by man’s choices. Scripture shows that God adapts His plans to Israel’s obedience and disobedience all the time. So, I’m baffled how you can say God does not react or adapt to human action.
To read Romans 8 and conclude what I underlined above is truly baffling. There is nothing in Romans 8 that implies that every detail of history was prewritten. There is nothing in Romans 8 that implies there is literally no time for God.
Before moving on, look at how Paul uses the word “foreknew” in Romans 11:2. Surely, you don’t think God knew about the nation of Israel before He knew about any other nation. In this sense, God “foreknew” (knew beforehand) all nations. Right? So, then, what does Paul mean by the word “foreknew” in Romans 11:2 if it doesn’t mean that God knew about the nation of Israel before He knew about any other nation? I submit that the word “foreknew” used by Paul relates to the idea that God envisioned Himself in a relationship with this nation long before their conception (long before any member of the nation existed).
Therefore, wouldn’t that suggest that Paul doesn’t mean, in Romans 8:29-30, that God knew about these people before He knew about others? Didn’t God foreknow (know beforehand) ALL people? So, “foreknew” in Romans 8:29 simply means that God envisioned Himself in a relationship with this people group (the body of Christ) long before their conception (long before any member of this group existed).
So, moving on. I agree that this elect group (the foreknown body of Christ) has not yet been glorified, but God already sees it done because what God has proclaimed (i.e. justified, glorified), God will bring to pass. It’s as good as done in God’s eyes. We can count on His faithfulness to bring it to pass. But none of this means that any one individual was chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.
Example from Knight:
This doesn’t say that God chose us “to be” in Him before the foundation of the world. It says that God chose us in Him (that means those in the Body) to be holy and without blame. God chose us, those in the Body, to be holy and without blame. Going back to Knight’s example, anyone showing up at the gate (those in the Body) will get a free ticket (are chosen to be holy and without blame).
What does this have to do with our discussion? God knows all of us before He forms us. Doesn’t He know the genetics of our parents intimately? Doesn’t He foreknow every possible circumstance we will find ourselves in as we grow? God had a specific plan for Jeremiah and God worked in his life to accomplish His plans. This certainly doesn’t prove your view that God predestines every detail of our lives.
It has to do with electing a nation for service to God whether that nation seems deserving or not. God chose the nation of Israel to serve Him, not because of anything good they had done. God turned from Israel and chose the Gentile nations for service, not because of anything good they had done. This is not about individual eternal salvation.
I wouldn’t word it like that. I think all things that happen to a person in Christ due to another's wickedness are things that God does not desire, but He can always use it for His glory and our good (Romans 8:28).
I agree. But I don’t think God wills it (causes it in any way); I think God allows it, doesn’t desire it at all, but will ALWAYS heal, deliver, and restore.
The guy who raped my sister didn’t ask God. But God is still God.
If Jeremiah had not cooperated with God’s plans, we’d be reading about another prophet who did.
Again, this is not about individual predestination to salvation. This is about the predestination of all who are within the Body of Christ to be holy and without blame.
Realizing you can’t earn it earns it? Sorry, that doesn’t make any sense.
This is the very issue I am taking with you, Paul in Ro.7. makes it quite plain that he can [in his natural self] will to do good but the power to perform that which he wills he has not. In fact instead of doing the good he wills he does evil instead.
This does not describe a will which is free but a will which is in bondage. And this is all Paul's language in all his letters.
You may thwart cancer but physical death you can by no means thwart.
Until people see the hopeless bondage they are in, bound to sin, bound to die, they will never cry for deliverance.
Freewill IS the deception that Satan perpetrated to induce man to sin "you will not surely die" in other words you can do as you please there will be no consequences.
With christians he pulls it inside out, he tries to get us to serve God of our own freewill...people dedicate their lives then pack their duds and set off for Africa....God's will for them was to work at their local health clinic...He had a WONDERFUL pan all mapped out for them which would have all fit together nicely, they would have met the love of their life...etc, etc but they never thought to seek God for His plan, they were never told that He had a specific plan for them. Predestination and Election and Calling etc are the golden doctrines that teach us these things.
Now God does not curse us or turn to hate us because we packed our duds and set off for Africa, He sighs, and pretty soon WE will sigh too.
Total nonsense. You make the prayer Jesus taught us to pray redundant.
Scripture tells us God wanted to draw Jerusalem under His wing, but they would not have it. Does that sound like Gods will being done to you?
If Gods will is being done in the earth then all the sins man does are according to Gods will.
Gods will, will not be done on earth until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That not to say God does not work within His sons to do His will.
Huh? Was Paul of the elect? If so then all the things Paul could not do must be God predestinating Paul not to be able to do them according to your guys understanding.
Eek gad, freewill is a gift to us from God, and like anything God gives us Satan tries to corrupt.
2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Yes, he does.
Don't you love it when people have to make up unscriptural terms to make something fit their doctrine. Permissive will. LOL:banana::rotfl: Gods will is Gods will plain and simple.
Here we go with that made up term again, permissive will, like God has two wills, one that predestinated sin, which makes God the author of sin and a will that does not want any sin.
Funny, yet horrible view of God.
Yep sin is of God, nice God you have there, I will sin, I don't will sin, I must be a schizophrenic God.
myQuote:
That not to say God does not work within His sons to do His will.
You must be young to not understand what I said in the quote. I was not saying God does not work in His sons, I was saying even though Gods will is not being done in the earth God still works in His sons to do His will.
I was agreeing with you.
I have given you what the Bible says about God's permissive and directive control of sin and sinners. I apologize for using a confusing term like permissive "will". Now please give scripture minus the sarcasm for you views. There is also preventive control Genesis 20. He uses religion and government among other things for this. He also has determinative control which is found in Job 1 and 2 and 1 Corinthians 10:13.
If they are walking in their own ways according to their own will, it is obvious they are not walking in God ways according to the Gods will.
All that those scriptures shows is God take our lemons and makes lemonade out of them., not that He predestinated and planned out all mans sins in order to accomplish His eternal purpose.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
That scripture alone is enough to show it is NOT according to Gods will that any should perish.
Yet it is your belief that God predestinated and planned it all out so that many perish.
The scripture refers to the predestined elect as should be obvious because the Bible is clear that not all will be saved. It is not His will that any of the elect perish so He allows time so that all of them will hear the effectual call and respond by receiving Christ. How many generations/centuries is that? All Peter is saying is this may take a long time so do not get discouraged or murmur against God.