ECT Prayer request for a Jehovah's Witness

Danoh

New member
Love ya, Danoh, but you lost me, sorry.
smiley_shrug.gif

Lol, sort of like when I cross the street against a light, someone follows me, and I jokingly say "don't follow me, I don't know what I am doing, lol"

Here, read these (all A9D):

http://www.bereanworkman.com/grace/alternative/prayer.htm

http://www.bereanworkman.com/grace/alternative/prayer2.html

http://www.bereanworkman.com/grace/alternative/prayer3.html
 

NWL

Active member
Are you as good as in the Kingdom at this very moment? Yes or no.

You may expand on any reply you make, but if it does not start off with either yes or no, I am going to ignore you.

Yes. But it depends on what you mean. If you mean am I in the kingdom if Jesus were to come tonight and have the Armageddon then yes I would say I would be in that kingdom. But if you're asking in the sense of 'am I in the kingdom and if Jesus were to come in the distant future', then the answer is I'm not sure. As far as I know next week I could become a murderer, thief, fornicator become apathetic to God, these type of things would void my entrance into the the kingdom.

Scripture make it irrefutably clear that salvation and entrance into Gods kingdom is NOT guaranteed until either the end of ones faithful life to God or the coming of Jesus.

(Matthew 24:13) "...But the one who has endured to the end will be saved..."

(Hebrews 6:4-6) "...For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame..."


When Jesus ascended to heaven, he did not immediately take up the scepter of rulership over the peoples of the world. Psalm 110:1 says "Jehovah declared to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet'..." As it can be seen God said the Jesus to sit at his right hand until the point he delivers the world to Jesus. However, he did receive a “kingdom” with subjects that obeyed him. The apostle Paul identified that kingdom when he wrote: “[God] delivered us [spirit-anointed Christians] from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.” (Colossians 1:13) This deliverance began at Pentecost*33*C.E. However that kingdom was not to be firmly establish until later.

This can again be seen in the account after Jesus resurrection when he had been glorified when the apostle spoke to him. Read the below scripture.

(Acts 1:6) So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?

The apostles thought that Jesus was about to restore the kingdom straight after his resurrection! However as the account carries on and its clear to see they were wrong in their thinking. Jesus replied "It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction", Jesus basically said -to paraphrase- "its not for you to know when the kingdom is being established". If the kingdom was already established back then, then the apostles were right and Jesus was wrong since he mislead the apostles to think that it wasn't established.

What i posted of the exchange is word for word what was discussed, and l told him to please correct me if I'm wrong on any point. He did not dispute but confirmed my understanding as accurate (which I already knew).

I believe him over you.

Do you not think some people may be more clued up more than others? I assure you my brother was partly wrong if he truly did tell you we work out our salvation. All you have to do is go to the JW website onto the online library and search kingdom or salvation to find out what I'm saying is accurate.

And for what reason would you not believe me? What reason would I have to lie?

I know, right? I had a JW tell me to my face that my understanding of Watchtower doctrine is accurate, but that's not good enough for the deliberately contentious.

He was mistaken, search the JW site if you don't believe me. If you don't then it simply proves your ignorance.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Yes. But...

The 'but' cancels the 'yes' and makes everything that follows it irrelevant.

HE delivered [past tense!] us from the authority of the darkness and transferred [past tense!] us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, by Whom we have [present tense!] redemption, the forgiveness of our sins
Paul left no room for 'but' here because CHRIST left no room for 'but.' HE did all of the above, not the Colossians (nor any member of Christ) of whom the above is true.

This is where you miss the whole point. The only reason anyone can already be transferred into the holy Kingdom of Christ, as Paul said, is because they've already been forgiven all sin (Col 2:13; Rom 8:1) and are a member of Christ's Body...meaning that wherever He is, the believer is there in Him, too. That's how the believer is already in His Kingdom. He's the King, and we're one with Him.

On the issue of perfect righteousness (without which I know we agree that none can stand before God), Christ did it ALL for those who trust Him alone and have forsaken trying to earn salvation via their works. ALL the work needed for us to be right with God is forever finished. The only thing that God now asks the lost to do, is simply take Him at His Word and trust Him by believing that fact. But the Watchtower has forbidden you to believe it. Don't bother denying it.

So I ask you again:

1. Are you, on the unbreakable authority of God's Word, 100% certain that you have been redeemed, that you have the forgiveness of all sin, and are thereby 100% confident that you have been delivered from Satan and are safely transferred to Christ's Kingdom now and forever?

2. Or, on the human authority of the Watchtower, are you working and hoping to earn entry into His Kingdom by your works, fearing that no matter what you do, you still may not make it?

These propositions are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be true and it is impossible for a sane mind to believe both.

So before God, tell the truth: Which one do you believe?
 
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Danoh

New member
This may offend. It not meant to.

Yes. But it depends on what you mean. If you mean am I in the kingdom if Jesus were to come tonight and have the Armageddon then yes I would say I would be in that kingdom. But if you're asking in the sense of 'am I in the kingdom and if Jesus were to come in the distant future', then the answer is I'm not sure. As far as I know next week I could become a murderer, thief, fornicator become apathetic to God, these type of things would void my entrance into the the kingdom.

Scripture make it irrefutably clear that salvation and entrance into Gods kingdom is NOT guaranteed until either the end of ones faithful life to God or the coming of Jesus.

(Matthew 24:13) "...But the one who has endured to the end will be saved..."


That right there shows you believe in works for salvation and or its continued maintenance.

But it goes with the territory. You have been taught that you have replaced Israel as "Jehovah's Witnesses." That passages like Isaiah 43:10, 12 are referring to you.

Thus, what you posted above my words here, as well as what follows. You are actually promoting works for salvation and or its maintenance.

(Hebrews 6:4-6) "...For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame..."

That passage is actually talking about those of Israel in Early Acts
, who resisted the Spirit's witness unto them through the Twelve of that foretaste of Israel's "world to come," Matt. 12:30-32, that Peter refers to in Acts 2:16 as "that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel" that Acts 2's Pentecost - had been a foretaste of, see the 2nd half of Acts 3.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, he did not immediately take up the scepter of rulership over the peoples of the world. Psalm 110:1 says "Jehovah declared to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet'..." As it can be seen God said the Jesus to sit at his right hand until the point he delivers the world to Jesus. However, he did receive a “kingdom” with subjects that obeyed him. The apostle Paul identified that kingdom when he wrote: “[God] delivered us [spirit-anointed Christians] from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.” (Colossians 1:13) This deliverance began at Pentecost*33*C.E. However that kingdom was not to be firmly establish until later.

True, He is not yet reigning. Aside from that, you have still greatly confused what the Lord had preached to Israel, that the Spirit continued through the Twelve, with what He later revealed thru an Apostle of the Gentiles, in planned line with Israel's temporary fall, Romans 11:11; 15:13-21; Eph. 3.

Romans 11:23-29 is the answer to Acts 1: 6's question.

Prior to the interruption of where things were headed, the Twelve and their followers were part of "he that endures until the end shall be saved," Matt. 10: 1-5, 22, 23; Matt. 23:1-3; Matt. 24: 1, 13, and even that has a very specific meaning which few study out properly.

For, according to many passages like Matt. 10: 19-20; John 1: 11-13, etc., the Twelve and their followers would have been endued with power from on high to enable them to endure unto the end.

Here is another example of this very fact - Rev. 7:

2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Whereas Paul relates the Believer in this Mystery Grace Age has already been translated to the kingdom of God's Dear Son, Col. 1:13. This is founded on Rom. 5:1; Rom. 5:10-11; and Col. 2:13, 14.

This can again be seen in the account after Jesus resurrection when he had been glorified when the apostle spoke to him. Read the below scripture.

(Acts 1:6) So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?

To who? Israel.

The apostles thought that Jesus was about to restore the kingdom straight after his resurrection! However as the account carries on and its clear to see they were wrong in their thinking. Jesus replied "It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction", Jesus basically said -to paraphrase- "its not for you to know when the kingdom is being established". If the kingdom was already established back then, then the apostles were right and Jesus was wrong since he mislead the apostles to think that it wasn't established.

Again, you have confused Peter and Paul.

Do you not think some people may be more clued up more than others? I assure you my brother was partly wrong if he truly did tell you we work out our salvation. All you have to do is go to the JW website onto the online library and search kingdom or salvation to find out what I'm saying is accurate.

And for what reason would you not believe me? What reason would I have to lie?

He was mistaken, search the JW site if you don't believe me. If you don't then it simply proves your ignorance.

You may or may not be lying - God knoweth.

Just as important is the fact that you are confused.

Works is exactly what you are promoting and don't even see that you are.

Again, no offense intended.
 

NWL

Active member
That right there shows you believe in works for salvation and or its continued maintenance.

But it goes with the territory. You have been taught that you have replaced Israel as "Jehovah's Witnesses." That passages like Isaiah 43:10, 12 are referring to you.

Thus, what you posted above my words here, as well as what follows. You are actually promoting works for salvation and or its maintenance.

It's incorrect of you to say that we "promote" works in order to get saved. There are only three things listed in scripture which we must do in order to get saved, these things are irrefutable as scripture is blunt about them. We must firstly come to know who the Father and the Christ is, put faith in them and obey them, its that simple.

(John 17:3) "...This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ..."

(Acts 16:31) "...They said: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will get saved, you and your household...”

(Hebrews 5:9) "...And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."


The only reason witnesses go out and preach is because this was a command by Jesus, therefore if we want to obey as Heb 5:9 states and enter into the kingdom then we must preach! Its simply coincidence that Jesus commanded a work to do as something which we must obey. If Jesus only command was something mundane
like to say a prayer every evening to the Father at 2100hrs exactly then thats all JW's would be doing. But its not. The works which we actually do have no bearing on out entrance into the kingdom, its simply our obedience of doing that work.

The fact that you've completely side stepped scriptures I used such as Heb 5:9 and Matt 7:21 which plainly show that Gods true followers are to OBEY and not simply put faith in him shows you're incapable of actually addressing me properly and simply wish to flood the board with your own ideology with actually addressing the problems I've put forth.

That passage is actually talking about those of Israel in Early Acts
, who resisted the Spirit's witness unto them through the Twelve of that foretaste of Israel's "world to come," Matt. 12:30-32, that Peter refers to in Acts 2:16 as "that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel" that Acts 2's Pentecost - had been a foretaste of, see the 2nd half of Acts 3.

That is your incorrect assumption. Please show me where it makes clear that Paul was referring to the Israelite's who rejected Jesus in the first place and no none other. The context is quite clear.

Romans 11:23-29 is the answer to Acts 1: 6's question.

In what way does the grafting of gentiles as Abraham seed answers the question of when the Kingdom is coming? You've failed to address the problems I've raised.

Prior to the interruption of where things were headed, the Twelve and their followers were part of "he that endures until the end shall be saved," Matt. 10: 1-5, 22, 23; Matt. 23:1-3; Matt. 24: 1, 13, and even that has a very specific meaning which few study out properly.

Yes the twelve were part of "he that endures until the end shall be saved," but to only limit the twelve to that statement is wrong. I've spoken about a lot of issues with people, one argument which always pops up sooner or later is "he was only speaking to that group of people though when saying that statement", my typical reply to that is why then have it in the Bible!(2 Tim 3:16) On the night of Jesus death he told his disciples in the upper room "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you" (John 13:34) Is this scripture too only applicable to the 11 apostle he said it to? Or is the statement transferable to all people today. I could list hundreds of more scripture where statements and commands were told to small groups but no christian would dare say it wasn't applicable to all. An inconsistent point it a bad point my friend.

Furthermore we see Paul giving the same statement to the Hebrew Christians as Jesus gave to them proving that the lesson is transferable to all believers and not just the apostle.

(Hebrews 10:36) "...For you need endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise..."

This can again be seen in the account after Jesus resurrection when he had been glorified when the apostle spoke to him. Read the below scripture.

(Acts 1:6) So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
To who? Israel.

Are you having with problems with understanding?

Again, you have confused Peter and Paul.

How so? Please re-read what I wrote, I never even stated the name Peter.
 

NWL

Active member
This is where you miss the whole point. The only reason anyone can already be transferred into the holy Kingdom of Christ, as Paul said, is because they've already been forgiven all sin (Col 2:13; Rom 8:1) and are a member of Christ's Body...meaning that wherever He is, the believer is there in Him, too. That's how the believer is already in His Kingdom. He's the King, and we're one with Him.

You're reading your own thoughts into scripture. Yes sins of believers are forgiven. But nowhere in scripture does anyone state that future sins of believers are to be automatically forgiven, such a thought is barbaric. If that were then one can accept Jesus and then do whatever he wants, one could go around fornicating, murdering, raping, stealing and all those sins would be forgiven according to your understanding of scripture. You are plainly wrong, God is not a barbarian who accepts such behavior.

Please show me a scripture where it states that future sins of men are automatically forgiven.
Scripture is quite clear that people who accept Jesus CAN fall away.


(Heb 10:26, 27 RSV) “...If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries...”


On the issue of perfect righteousness (without which I know we agree that none can stand before God), Christ did it ALL for those who trust Him alone and have forsaken trying to earn salvation via their works. ALL the work needed for us to be right with God is forever finished. The only thing that God now asks the lost to do, is simply take Him at His Word and trust Him by believing that fact. But the Watchtower has forbidden you to believe it. Don't bother denying it.

Where have you read such things!? Seriously how could anyone ever think all the work was accomplished by Jesus alone? Have you ever picked up a Bible and ever read the NT?

(Matthew 24:14) "...And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come..."

Jesus himself stated that the end will not come until the good news is preached in all the inhabited earth. Jesus did not accomplish this but stated his followers would. So how on earth did you get the idea that Jesus accomplished all types of works? Why would he even send the apostles out to preach in Matt 28:19!? What you stated makes no sense.


I've already answered one of your questions so now you answer some of mine first and then I'll answer yours.

  1. Hebrews 5:9 states "[Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him", must we obey the command to preach of the one "who is responsible for salvation to all those obeying him" in order to get saved? If your answer is no, then is Heb 5:9 wrong?
  2. Romans 10:10 says "For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation". Based on obedience, is "public declaration [necessary] for salvation"If your answer is no, then is Romans 10:10 wrong?
 

musterion

Well-known member
You're reading your own thoughts into scripture. Yes sins of believers are forgiven. But nowhere in scripture does anyone state that future sins of believers are to be automatically forgiven, such a thought is barbaric.

Then you're calling Christ's own apostle of grace a barbarian. Boring. We already have one JW on this board who's done that dozens of times.

Please show me a scripture where it states that future sins of men are automatically forgiven.

The word Paul used in Col 2:13 is panta, related to pas. Do yourself the favor by clicking those word links to see what Paul meant by 'all."

Do you know why Paul could use pas? Because of Romans 6:6 and 7:4. Not only can God's law condemn those He has declared dead to His Law. He has no reason to condemn those who have also been raised to new life in Christ, and whose life IS now Christ; and with it, His righteousness. Yet the Watchtower denies this surety to you.

Nonetheless, would you like those Bible facts to be true for yourself, too? They can be. That's the ONLY way you can EVER see the Kingdom.

Or will you continue to slander God's complete and perfect work of grace as barbaric?

Seriously how could anyone ever think all the work was accomplished by Jesus alone?
Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5. Or are those barbaric, too?
 

NWL

Active member
Then you're calling Christ's own apostle of grace a barbarian. Boring. We already have one JW on this board who's done that dozens of times.



The word Paul used in Col 2:13 is panta, related to pas. Do yourself the favor by clicking those word links to see what Paul meant by 'all."

Do you know why Paul could use pas? Because of Romans 6:6 and 7:4. Not only can God's law condemn those He has declared dead to His Law. He has no reason to condemn those who have also been raised to new life in Christ, and whose life IS now Christ; and with it, His righteousness. Yet the Watchtower denies this surety to you.

Nonetheless, would you like those Bible facts to be true for yourself, too? They can be. That's the ONLY way you can EVER see the Kingdom.

Or will you continue to slander God's complete and perfect work of grace as barbaric?

Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5. Or are those barbaric, too?


Before I deal with your post answer my questions which you completely avoided.

1. Based on Hebrews 5:9 does Jesus give salvation to only "those obeying him" Yes or no?

(Heb 5:9) "...And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him..."

2. Based on Romans 10:10 and also regarding Jesus command to preach, does "public declaration lead to salvation"? Yes or no?

(Romans 10:10) "...For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public leading to salvation..."

Please note my questions are basically getting you to confirm how the verses should be literally read, no WT teaching there at all, so don't be afraid to answer.
 
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SonOfCaleb

Active member
James 2:26 "faith without works is dead".

James 2:20 23 "But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend".

Obedience to Jehovah brings blessings.

Its a shame so many 'Christians' are unfamiliar with the Bible.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
James 2:26 "faith without works is dead".

James 2:20 23 "But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend".

Obedience to Jehovah brings blessings.

Its a shame so many 'Christians' are unfamiliar with the Bible.

Is grace without works dead?

I was saved by grace, through the faith of Christ. His faith is not dead.
 
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serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
Praying for him.

Recommended reading:

The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead by Michael S. Heiser (A study in Logos: Heiser, M. S. (2014). OT291 The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press).
 
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