Please someone answer me this;

Aimiel

Well-known member
I see that the verses are inconsistent, and you are not willing to deal with reality, out of fear that it will shake your faith. It is a weak faith that requires one to blind oneself.
It isn't blindness or fear at all: merely knowledge. I know in Whom I have believed. He is trustworthy. He said to trust His Word. Jesus quoted from it. He didn't make any disclaimers. Neither do I. If The Creator (Jesus) wants me to stand by His Word, I'll do so. You should, too. God doesn't lie. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not a good idea. There are eternal consequences for what you do with God's Holy Word. If you reject His Word: He will reject you. Entrance into Heaven is only granted to believers.
 

chair

Well-known member
It isn't blindness or fear at all: merely knowledge. I know in Whom I have believed. He is trustworthy. He said to trust His Word. Jesus quoted from it. He didn't make any disclaimers. Neither do I. If The Creator (Jesus) wants me to stand by His Word, I'll do so. You should, too. God doesn't lie. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not a good idea. There are eternal consequences for what you do with God's Holy Word. If you reject His Word: He will reject you. Entrance into Heaven is only granted to believers.

You can repeat how much you believe and trust 1,000 times, yet Noah took either 2 or 7 of each kind of bird- not 2 and 7. Either David killed Goliath, or Elchanan did. Not both. EIther Satan tempted David, or God did. Not both.

By the way. please note that I am not a Christian, and have no interest in your heaven.
 

rstrats

Active member
Aimiel,

So for all intents and purposes you're saying that you can't reconcile Genesis 6:20 with Genesis 7:3; that you just have to trust that the Creator knows what He's doing and that there has to be an explanation for each seeming contradiction even though you don't know what it is?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Aimiel,

So for all intents and purposes you're saying that you can't reconcile Genesis 6:20 with Genesis 7:3; that you just have to trust that the Creator knows what He's doing and that there has to be an explanation for each seeming contradiction even though you don't know what it is?
I see where God said that those animals who 'creep' upon the ground by twos and those that fly by sevens. I don't know why, but when you get to Heaven you can ask God.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Since the time of Moses to now, not much has change in the Middle East geographically speaking. No violence volcanoes or ground changing earthquakes. From the Libya/Eygtian border to Red sea to Israel is about 750 miles. Average walking speed is 4 miles a day so about 175 hours non-stop. So let's slow that down to 1 mile a day = 4×175=700 hours. Let's rest 1 day for every mile (2 million plus people) that's 750 days + 700 hours. The Israelites did not travel in a straight line so let double the distant to 1,500 miles and travel 1/2 mile every 2 days, not even close to 40 years. I know there are some who think that I am being facetious but 40 years to walk 1,500 miles ? And leave no trace of passage?

Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
Seen this one yet?
 

Lon

Well-known member
You can repeat how much you believe and trust 1,000 times, yet Noah took either 2 or 7 of each kind of bird- not 2 and 7. Either David killed Goliath, or Elchanan did. Not both. EIther Satan tempted David, or God did. Not both.

By the way. please note that I am not a Christian, and have no interest in your heaven.
Either Moses was inept OR you are missing something. I USUALLY assume the guy reading it is the one that is missing something :think:

He certainly brought 7 of all sacrificial animals. If you read 'two' after it isn't a contradiction but an 'addition.' Isn't that a 'reading' problem, not a conveyance problem? I realize where you are at on most of this, but I'm just saying it isn't everybody's answer. It depends upon where you are coming from. I don't think I ever asked: Do you believe there is a God?
 

chair

Well-known member
Either Moses was inept OR you are missing something. I USUALLY assume the guy reading it is the one that is missing something :think:

He certainly brought 7 of all sacrificial animals. If you read 'two' after it isn't a contradiction but an 'addition.' Isn't that a 'reading' problem, not a conveyance problem? I realize where you are at on most of this, but I'm just saying it isn't everybody's answer. It depends upon where you are coming from. I don't think I ever asked: Do you believe there is a God?

There is a God.
The texts are contradictory. Period.
 

chair

Well-known member
ok

that's your opinion

period

My point is this. 2 is not 7. The excuses that work for the other animals (clean vs. unclean) don't work here. What kind of "expansion" of instructions says "um, take 7, not 2! When I said 2, I meant 7!" This isn't a matter of viewpoint or belief.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
My point is this. 2 is not 7.



I have two fingers on my hands. One I use for scratching my nose, one I use for scratching my butt.


How many fingers do I have on my hands?


Some people would say two, those who could see my hands might say ten.

As it turns out, the correct answer is 8, plus two thumbs.
 

chair

Well-known member
I have two fingers on my hands. One I use for scratching my nose, one I use for scratching my butt.


How many fingers do I have on my hands?


Some people would say two, those who could see my hands might say ten.

As it turns out, the correct answer is 8, plus two thumbs.

If I say "hold up two fingers", then I say "hold up seven fingers"- how many do you hold up?
 

chair

Well-known member
If I tell you to hold up nine fingers, what do you do?

Depends if you count thumbs as fingers. You said that you didn't. So I would not be able to do what you asked.

So, getting back to birds- did God differentiate between clean and unclean birds? I don't see that in my text. He did so for other animals, but not for birds.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Depends if you count thumbs as fingers. You said that you didn't. So I would not be able to do what you asked.

So, getting back to birds- did God differentiate between clean and unclean birds? I don't see that in my text. He did so for other animals, but not for birds.


i'd have to study the text more closely than I have time for right now
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
but to get back to my request for you to hold up nine fingers, i think we'd both understand what you were doing if you did this:

IMG_0701.JPG
 

Lon

Well-known member
There is a God.
The texts are contradictory. Period.
Again, I've read them. I'm versed in the languages of them. While the layman Jew may have 'some' insight into contradictions, Maimonides defines Orthodox Judaism. Unorthodox Jews exist of course (apparently you). From what I've read, there is just as much a problem between Conservative/Liberal Jews, as between Conservative Orthodox and liberal Christians. The Conservative questions (rightly) the reinterpretation of situational ethics.

Genesis 6:19-20
Genesis 7:2-3

Absolutely NO contradiction. Some get caught up in 'apparent' that they can't or won't think out of the box they are in. "WHY" is more important than the fact one is caught in such over the disagreement. I find most often, it is 'agenda' thus confirmation bias that steers this whenever I've encountered it.
 

chair

Well-known member
Again, I've read them. I'm versed in the languages of them. While the layman Jew may have 'some' insight into contradictions, Maimonides defines Orthodox Judaism. Unorthodox Jews exist of course (apparently you). From what I've read, there is just as much a problem between Conservative/Liberal Jews, as between Conservative Orthodox and liberal Christians. The Conservative questions (rightly) the reinterpretation of situational ethics.

Genesis 6:19-20
Genesis 7:2-3

Absolutely NO contradiction. Some get caught up in 'apparent' that they can't or won't think out of the box they are in. "WHY" is more important than the fact one is caught in such over the disagreement. I find most often, it is 'agenda' thus confirmation bias that steers this whenever I've encountered it.

so you're an expert on Judaism. I gather that you know Biblical Hebrew, unlike the "layman Jew". And you're aware that Judaism existed long before Maimonides, and the the term "Orthodox Judaism" was only invented recently.

What is notably lacking from your post is any explanation of how the verses are consistent. It sounds like you are appealing to blind faith. "It can't possibly be contradictory, therefore it isn't". Maybe that works for you, but not for me.

For the record, I am an observant Jew. I do not like the term "Orthodox" which implies that Judaism is a belief-based religion like Christianity. It isn't. Despite Maimonides.
 

Lon

Well-known member
so you're an expert on Judaism. I gather that you know Biblical Hebrew, unlike the "layman Jew".

Ah, so you've passed your bar mitzvah. I didn't say I was an 'expert.' I said I was versed. We were talking rather about what 'contradictions' you were certainly not 'versed' in (not your Hebrew instruction). Well, unless you had an very progressive Rabbi? From what I understand, the exception and rare.
And you're aware that Judaism existed long before Maimonides, and the the term "Orthodox Judaism" was only invented recently.
:nono: ONLY because of progressive and liberal departures. The terms are rather a demarcation 'from' those no longer following those traditions. The rift is the cause of the labeling of camps. I'm not aware of many 'ancient' Jews that questioned the veracity of scriptures. Some? Sure. We all have our liberals and/or nare-do-wells. It is only when it becomes necessary that we create an identity of difference. The Catholics have Vatican 1 and Vatican 2 disclaimers. It isn't that either is a new condition, but rather that the clash became stark. As I understand it, this is similar with 'orthodox' vs. 'unorthodox' Jews.

What is notably lacking from your post is any explanation of how the verses are consistent. It sounds like you are appealing to blind faith. "It can't possibly be contradictory, therefore it isn't". Maybe that works for you, but not for me.
It 'sounds' like you are quite a layman without really knowing the extent of discussion in 'theology' circles, both Jewish and Christianity by nature. Head in the sand? This problem has been extensively addressed, (on Google even! :noway: ). In our (Christian) camp, we call these biased and unlearned. You are going to have to forgive us, the German liberal 'higher (so called) criticism' left us rolling our eyes, especially when all the accusation was clearly unsubstantial. "Questioning" veracity, afterall, is a negative intellectual capacity. "Investigating" and waiting out the truth is the actual academic standard. These so-called 'higher' critics were nothing of the sort and proven wrong simply by Dead Sea Scrolls and archaeology. Will we find evidence of a mass Egyptian exodus? Yeah, I think we will. In my lifetime? Doesn't matter. It is a very limited myopic skeptic to demand it. At the very least, in my camp (Christian), we've worked alongside Jewish historians and scholars to show much of skepticism simply isn't rational let alone warranted. Why? Because the 'history' of such skepticism proves out wrong in the end. We DID find the Scrolls. We did find archaeology supporting, etc. etc. It is simply naught but unfounded (unfoundable) skepticism with little to no academic prowess (let alone effort) behind it (not sure where you fall in any of this, but I think addressing the history of liberal skepticism is appropriate for thread and topic).

For the most part, you can EITHER look for resolution OR doubt. This, btw, is the discussion point in thread, but I enjoy/appreciate the peripheral discussion and I think it adds to the thread topic. Simply 'thinking' there is a discrepancy is not a problem but trying to say their is an 'obvious' contradiction isn't academic to me. It nearly always implies and points to a posture 'about' the scriptures before you or I ever got here. The address and response to the number of animals is more than satisfactory to anyone but a staunch position otherwise. The answer is acceptable because it actually 'works' WITH the scriptures for the explanation. Of course, for 40 days and nights, there was going to need to be ritual and food. The amount then would apply specifically to the animals to be gathered and the animals already gathered. Even to the most skeptical, this IS reasonable and fits the text. You don't have to 'like' it, but then we are talking 'preference' rather than academics at that point, aren't we?
For the record, I am an observant Jew. I do not like the term "Orthodox" which implies that Judaism is a belief-based religion like Christianity. It isn't. Despite Maimonides.
I'm in a discussion over metaphysics and proofs in another thread so it is interesting you'd say this. If you would, I'd like to hear this explained a bit further. My initial reaction is "wrong, nuh-uh Habakkuk 2:4" but that's just knee-jerk. I need to know more precisely what you mean by it, if you would (thank you). -Lon
 
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