ECT "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" - The Catholic Church

[Nihilo]

Note that us stated that the church and Christ are inseparable.

Yeah.

Saying you are in imperfect union with the Church is inseparable from Jesus is saying that a person is in imperfect union with Christ. What does it mean to be in imperfect union with Christ?

No. You said:

The RCC says that those who are not Catholic are in imperfect union wit the church and imply that that imperfect union somehow impacts their state of grace.

And I asked you to explain.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yeah.
No. You said:
And I asked you to explain.

The answer to my question is the explanation. When somebody says you are inperfect union with my church, and by extension, with Christ it implies that a person is somehow "less saved" or has less grace from God.

Is it a formal teaching of the church? No. Is it reasonably inferred by the teachings of the church? Yes.

 

[Danoh]

You can't touch me, Roman droid, with respect to biblical knowledge, and would not know the difference between the book of Daniel, and Daniel Boone.

Correction - that's "can't THIS" - M.C. Hammer :chuckle:

 

[musterion]

I don't know about good, but it is one of his more eloquent ones.

Duh-HUR!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

And now back to the topic at hand which nobody can or ever will refute:

A brief excerpt from "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth"
(source link):

QUOTE:

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

 

[Cruciform]

No one needs the RCC to teach them.

That's not what the New Testament indicates (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I can see, saint john, that your spell of ecumenism that you learned from Dr. Breen is over.

SaintJohn unscrambled:

john

satin

john

stain

insta

john

hot

ninjas

ninja

shot

AMR

 

[Nihilo]

When somebody says you are inperfect union with my church, and by extension, with Christ it implies that a person is somehow "less saved" or has less grace from God.

Not less saved, but surely less grace, primarily because of being separated from the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist.

Is it a formal teaching of the church? No. Is it reasonably inferred by the teachings of the church? Yes.

Disagree.

I wasn't raised Catholic, were you? I'm curious your point-of-view with this, and there are a lot of "ex" Catholics here; didn't know if you are one.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Not less saved, but surely less grace, primarily because of being separated from the sacraments, primarily the Eucharist.
Disagree.

I wasn't raised Catholic, were you? I'm curious your point-of-view with this, and there are a lot of "ex" Catholics here; didn't know if you are one.

Yes, I was raised Catholic. As a Protestant, I am not separated from the sacraments particularly the Eucharist. Protestants marry and baptize and partake of the Eucharist.
I find it interesting that you claim to disagree with my statement yet in the first sentence you state the those not in unity with the RCC do have less grace.

 

[john w]

And now back to the topic at hand which nobody can or ever will refute:

No, respective members of the boc on TOL, the church, have "refuted" your made up "doctrine." Don't confuse your lack of reading comprehension skills, and your lack of spiritual discernment, due to 2 Cor. 4:4 KJV/1 Cor. 2:14 KJV, with any alleged lack of refuting, error, on our, the church's part.

Can you dig it, Roman?

Get saved.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The answer to my question is the explanation. When somebody says you are inperfect union with my church, and by extension, with Christ it implies that a person is somehow "less saved" or has less grace from God.

Is it a formal teaching of the church? No. Is it reasonably inferred by the teachings of the church? Yes.

Salvation is a whole other subject. Nobody is "saved", and that's because salvation is an an going process, not a one-time event. This has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

No, respective members of the boc on TOL, the church, have "refuted" your made up "doctrine.".......

No they have not.

....your lack of reading comprehension skills.......

LOL. I read you like the comic book you are, one with blank pages.

.....your lack of spiritual discernment.......

It's amazing. As ignorant as you are, everything say say makes you even more so.

....Can you dig it, Roman?.......

I'm an American you moron. And don't use phrases from 50's years before you were born.

....Get saved.

You have no clue what that even means. Go back to your sandbox little one. Grownups are talking here.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Back to the topic again. And still, nobody here can refute it:

A brief excerpt from "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth"
(source link):

QUOTE:

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

 

[CabinetMaker]

Salvation is a whole other subject. Nobody is "saved", and that's because salvation is an an going process, not a one-time event. This has nothing to do with the topic.

Sorry, I no longer subscribe to RCC propoganda regarding salvation. I trust God and His Son on matters of salvation.

 

[HisServant]

Back to the topic again. And still, nobody here can refute it:

I always find it funny when you cite verses, but the discussion never really relates the quoted verses.

The verses are just a diversion you use to try and put some legitimacy to your nonsense.

The entire quoted passage actually refutes itself multiple times, by being incoherent.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I always find it funny when you cite verses.........

.....and I always find it sad when you botch them up.

 

[HisServant]

.....and I always find it sad when you botch them up.

The verses quoted in that post at the beginning of each topic have nothing to do with the paragraph trying to 'explain' it.

If anything, especially the one about a Holy Church, proves that the RCC is not Holy by any stretch of the imagination because it equates behavior with Holyness... and the RCC has pretty much exhibited devilish behavior throughout its entire torrid history.

 

[Cruciform]

Sorry, I no longer subscribe to RCC propoganda regarding salvation. I trust God and His Son on matters of salvation.

...as long as "God and his Son" happen to speak with the voice of his (CM's) preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, that is. (What an amazing coincidence!)

 

[CabinetMaker]

...as long as "God and his Son" happen to speak with the voice of his (CM's) preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, that is. (What an amazing coincidence!)

You have your entirely man made sect that choose to worship and I have my chosen man made sect where I go worship. In that we are no different, right down to the recently invented traditions.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Sorry, I no longer subscribe to RCC propoganda regarding salvation. I trust God and His Son on matters of salvation.

If you really trusted Jesus you would trust his decision regarding those he place in charge. But you don't, so you don't.

BTW: Learn how to spell "propaganda".