Paul's Glorious Gospel

[meshak]

We do. I just said that. The only point we'd disagree with is a difference between love and salvation. 1 John 4:18

love is the main theme of the Gospel. And you take it so lightly.

Without striving to follow Jesus' teachings, there is no salvation because Jesus says to do as He says.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul was a faith alone person.

No way, for Paul knows he was NOT SAVED when he believed; he still had to do what Jesus said. He was NOT YET saved on that road to Damascus. Paul had to go and do what Jesus said to do, and he still was not yet saved until after he fasted for three days and spent his time praying.

 

[meshak]

Your superstitions are deep.

Your blindness is deep.

 

[Truster]

You are a Calvinist. Calvinism is rampant and you got taken in by it in your neck of the woods.

You believe just like the Calvinists do, and that is that you were saved while you hated God.

No such evil teaching in the Bible. In fact that teaching goes against what God says.

God says He saves those who love Him.

No comment.

 

[Truster]

No way, for Paul knows he was NOT SAVED when he believed; he still had to do what Jesus said. He was NOT YET saved on that road to Damascus. Paul had to go and do what Jesus said to do, and he still was not yet saved until after he fasted for three days and spent his time praying.

No comment.

 

[Truster]

Your blindness is deep.

Why bother.

 

[meshak]

Why bother.

to elaborate your fake faith.

 

[Truster]

Yes you are. You believe that God made you a Christian without your will.

If He'd needed my permission I would have refused, because I prefered darkness. Wine, women and song Roberto. Why would I have given that up?

 

[Truster]

to elaborate your fake faith.

No comment.

 

[meshak]

No comment.

good for you.

You keep it that way, so you wont pile up sins to reach to heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

No comment.

Good, be quiet, Satan.

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

Your words betray you as well English Episcopal or Anglican or whatever you are. James said we are justified by our works - how does that fit into your gospel?

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:20,21

He basically said the exact opposite of Paul and then used Rahab the lying prostitute as an example - just classic James.

I have to respe tfully disagree with you on this one. I am not saying that I agree with "truster" because I don't think I do. But what I am disagreeing with you on is when you say that "Abraham was justified by WORKS when he offered Isaac on the alter."
The NT addresses this speech I finally and it tells us the opposite of what you said. It says that Abraham was NOT justified by works of any kind. Abraham was not justified or counted as righteous by any work, not a sacrifice or a circumcision or any work. But Abraham was justified and counted as righteous by his TRUST in and FAITH in God.

I will show you where the NT in Romans 4 explains this exact circumstance....

"What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”
Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised.
-Romans 4

Now I agree with you that works of love on Jesus' behalf are very important and that when James says "faith without works is dead." But even when James says it he says the word faith first. If we have faith and are saved and justified then works of love and obedience are important because they show the world our faith in Jesus. And once we are saved and have Jesus as our Lord then that kind of faith will stir the heart to produce works and good fruits. so works are important because they are a product of our faith. But faith comes before works and we are saved by our faith in Christ who has done the only work that can save. Then we do works once we are saved because we love Jesus and want to be obedient to Him and want to show the world His love.

 

[Epoisses]

When Billy Graham came through my city, many Presbyterian churches were involved. Anybody, including a Calvinist, can share scriptures. I generally use the Romans Road: All have sinned Romans 3:23...while we were yet sinners Romans 5:8 (and John 3:16).... the result of sin is death Romans 6:23 and finally Romans 10:9,10 That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. I normally recommend Ephesians 2:8,9 for new believers as their 2nd or 3rd memory verse.

I always smile at John W's use of "Clavinists." Most people liked Cliff Clavin. MAD is just as holier-than-thou. Everybody that has a grasp of scripture they feel confident/believe, exude that confidence. I see it as a good thing, if annoying. Granted, we are all supposed to be doing this in humility. Add an education to anything and the pride is twice as hard to keep down. -Lon

You cannot preach the good news of Salvation if Christ didn't die for most of the people who have ever lived. Your doctrine breeds doubt and unbelief where those stupid enough to accept it are constantly wondering if they are predestined or not.

 

[Epoisses]

I have to respe tfully disagree with you on this one. I am not saying that I agree with "truster" because I don't think I do. But what I am disagreeing with you on is when you say that "Abraham was justified by WORKS when he offered Isaac on the alter."
The NT addresses this speech I finally and it tells us the opposite of what you said. It says that Abraham was NOT justified by works of any kind. Abraham was not justified or counted as righteous by any work, not a sacrifice or a circumcision or any work. But Abraham was justified and counted as righteous by his TRUST in and FAITH in God.

I will show you where the NT in Romans 4 explains this exact circumstance....

"What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due. But to one who without works trusts him who justifies the ungodly, such faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David speaks of the blessedness of those to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the one against whom the Lord will not reckon sin.”
Is this blessedness, then, pronounced only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised.
-Romans 4

Now I agree with you that works of love on Jesus' behalf are very important and that when James says "faith without works is dead." But even when James says it he says the word faith first. If we have faith and are saved and justified then works of love and obedience are important because they show the world our faith in Jesus. And once we are saved and have Jesus as our Lord then that kind of faith will stir the heart to produce works and good fruits. so works are important because they are a product of our faith. But faith comes before works and we are saved by our faith in Christ who has done the only work that can save. Then we do works once we are saved because we love Jesus and want to be obedient to Him and want to show the world His love.

Abraham was justified by his works point blank and in your face. God is either producing his works in and thru us or Satan is producing his works in and thru us. It's as simple as that. Our works reveal the master we bow to.

 

[Lon]

You cannot preach the good news of Salvation if Christ didn't die for most of the people who have ever lived. Your doctrine breeds doubt and unbelief where those stupid enough to accept it are constantly wondering if they are predestined or not.

Romans 8:29 I don't doubt. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Romans 10:13 As such, there is no question, I simply think you who also called and are not Calvinists, are 1) saved and 2) actually just 'poor' Calvinists. I suppose an Open Theist is a bit different, but even they are inconsistently Calvinistic in many of their ideas. Whenever we interact with a perfect God, we are the ones that change and need to change.

Sorry for the derogatory tenor. I don't think it a bad name to suggest that another also holds to Calvinist doctrines to some degree. I think it a good thing, simply because it is accompanies scripture. However, if you have a very strong reaction against such, I apologize - not my intent. -Lon

 

[Epoisses]

Romans 8:29 I don't doubt. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Romans 10:13 As such, there is no question, I simply think you who also called and are not Calvinists, are 1) saved and 2) actually just 'poor' Calvinists. I suppose an Open Theist is a bit different, but even they are inconsistently Calvinistic in many of their ideas. Whenever we interact with a perfect God, we are the ones that change and need to change.

Sorry for the derogatory tenor. I don't think it a bad name to suggest that another also holds to Calvinist doctrines to some degree. I think it a good thing, simply because it is accompanies scripture. However, if you have a very strong reaction against such, I apologize - not my intent. -Lon

You can never separate the work of Christ on the cross from the work of Christ in the heart. The fundamental flaw in your delusion. Jesus did not elect people on the cross that happened in eternity past. The cross was to deal with the sin problem once and for all. One sacrifice for all sin for all time.

 

[Lon]

Abraham was justified by his works point blank and in your face.

Romans 4:1-5,9-12 :think:

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 4:1-5,9-12 :think:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

..........
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


…..
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Epoisses]

Romans 4:1-5,9-12 :think:

James 2:21-24

 

[Robert Pate]

Abraham was justified by faith alone, Romans 4:2. James was not aware that the law had been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. He had to learn that from Paul.

"But to him that does NO WORKS, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.