Paul’s false doctrine of everyone is a sinner

[jamie]

The primary false doctrine of Paul is that we are all sinners, every last one of us, there is no one that is not considered a sinner. (Rom 3:23)

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. “ HCSB Rom 3:23

What is sin? How do you define it?

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” (Genesis 4:6-7)​

Is there any possibility that Cain sinned? And if Paul said Cain sinned would he be wrong?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Lucky to have such a father.


Christians don't do that.

Amen.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Right, and who would dare claim that they keep the law as the Lord Jesus defined it here?:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Mt.22:36-40).​

Good point.

 

[jshugart]

What is sin?
How do you define it?
Is there any possibility that Cain sinned?
And if Paul said Cain sinned would he be wrong?

1 John 3:4 has a good definition using NT texts in your canon.
“ sin is the breaking of law.”

What do the 3rd and 4th questions have to do with this discussion?
Yes Cain sinned.
I don’t care what Paul’s opinion is on any topic, this is the same as me asking;
Did Josephus say Cain sinned, and would he be wrong? Doesn’t matter to me, and I don’t care.


I'm going to answer this question, but I will not be following up on any other questions on this topic in this thread. At some point in the future I may jump on a thread to discuss it, but it won't be today, and it won't be in this thread.

Do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity as taught in Scripture:

I need to stop you here. I've defined above that my canon of Scripture is different than most. With a base understanding that using just the OT text as your basis of Scripture....
No I do not. I can't make the needed connections using the texts in my canon.

I have answered many of your points. Now I would like you to respond to what I said. We can discuss those passages which you quoted later. How about that?

Anything not in my original post is not "my points", I’m responding to the barrage of questions. If you mean you are responding to my responses, okay, I agree with that. I will continue to answer your questions, but I predict we will be doing circles for quite some time before you address everything in my original post. It is your modus operandi, deflect the direct questions so you can attack from a different approach that is better suited for your arguments.

"I would like you to respond to what I said"
I will this time, but instead, why don't you ask me direct questions? Instead of expecting me to comment on every single bit of your commentary. I find that much more civilized. Nor do I feel the need to comment on every single thing that you type.

[snarky]
I'm not sure if you were aware or not, so I'll explain it just to make sure. When someone asks you a direct question, they usually expect a direct answer to that question. That is an indication that is the part of the conversation they are looking for a response.
[/snarky]

I'm going to keep a running tally, in each post I make, I will post how many questions you asked in your last post, and make sure I answer each one. And I will also post the number of direct questions I ask of you in each post I make, at the bottom, so it will be easy for you to know how many unanswered questions there are for you. Just a small service I think will help us make better progress.
A one sided discussion isn't fair, wouldn't you agree?
So in your last post there was a total of one question, which I answered above.

Jack, let us look at this translation:

"Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.64:5-6).​

You just assume that the phrase "worketh righteousness" means being sinless. However, here we can see that David is described as walking before the LORD "in righteousness" but we both know that he was not sinless.

"And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day" (1 Ki.3:6).​

Besides that at Isaiah 64:5 the one described as "working righteousness" cannot be excluded from the category mentioned in the very next verse: "we are all as an unclean thing."

I'm not sure what to say here. You want me to comment, but no direct questions. I'm not sure how this has anything to do with Paul taking OT texts out of context.

But I agree with the base assertion, that sinners can also work righteousness. Is there something you are asserting that is other than: "sinners can work righteousness"?

I'm not saying we have not all sinned. I think we are under the wrong assumption. Just because I'm pointing out Paul's bad doctrine, doesn't mean you can figure out what I believe on the subject. Try asking direct questions instead of making assumptions.

You misunderstand what is said in the verses which you quoted.

You have been telling me that for as long as I can remember.

Before I comment on this commentary, let me say, again....
Quoting text that I have said is not authoritative to me, is meaningless to this discussion, and shows me that, you do not understand the words that are being typed onto the screen.

I quote the NT to you, because it has meaning to you, not because it has any value to me in this discussion. For these discussions, and without getting too deep into what is in my canon, let’s just leave it to OT texts for now. If you prefer, I will not quote NT texts either since it is causing you confusion.

First, let us look at what James said in the first chapter in the same epistle:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

The giving of birth is apart from works of any kind. Let us look at what what you call one of the real Apostles said about being born again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

Let us look at what is said in the gospel of another one of the real Apostles, John:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

I have not said you could quote NT to me. That is not the point to this thread. If you want to highjack the thread, start a new thread and drop a link in here. I'm not saying I'm going to jump into it right away, but It would be a good bookmarking method if you wish.

You can quote scripture that has nothing to do with the topic all you want, but it doesn't carry any weight to me, I'm used to you pulling that.

James the brother of Jesus and Paul the false Apostle, both quoting the same OT text, and both coming away with something different. And you razzle dazzle back with James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23,25, John 3:16. What? None of these have anything to do with the discussion on hand or whether James 2:20-26 and Romans 4 are referring to the same root OT text or not. Nor to the point that they claim two separate, opposite points of doctrine.

If you have a question that I am not getting by osmosis, please ask directly to try and get the response you’re looking for.

Again, that does not nullify what is said at Genesis 15:6.

I don't have a problem with this verse. I think James has the better interpretation. But you are allowed to believe what you want, I'm not trying to convince you. And your commentary has not changed my views, because you state he wasn't talking about what he IS talking about, because I misunderstand ... Got it!

And if I expand on this, we are still continuing to debate NT texts that have no meaning to me. The only point to continue discussing these texts is if I was trying to convince you, which I'm not.

Look, you quoted Paul and his misquotes and I pointed out that another NT writer quoted the same OT text and got something exactly opposite of what Paul teaches. Then you deny they are quoting the same text? If you say James isn't quoting Gen 15:6 in chapter 2, then you need a better reference bible to work with. Just to help though, it is verse 23 that is directly quoting and referring to Gen 15:6.

I've already proven Paul is untrustworthy in my first post. Before you start using him as a source, try addressing the root issues in my first post. Ignoring the data and still pushing Paul doctrine without addressing the issues, par for the course. But it isn’t helping me clarify anything.

You do this every day, for years and years online. This is your thing, you love confrontation and argumentation. Try and break out of your online rut. Give me a break, and try and work with me on this one way cross examination.

Direct questions in this post: 5

 

[Tambora]

Then Paul would be a man in denial by your own statement.

Phil 3:4-6 (HCSB)
4 although I once also had confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law, a Pharisee; 6 regarding zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness that is in the law, blameless.

Paul directly states he was sinless under the law of Moses. It isn't what I said, I'm just quoting Paul.

Of course he was in denial.
As Saul, he was zealous for the law and in denial that Jesus was the promised Messiah. And he really believed he was doing GOD's will by persecuting those that did believe Jesus was the promised Messiah.
As Paul, and now a believer that Jesus was who He said He was and it was revealed to him that there never was a law that could save.

Galatians 3:21 KJV
(21) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

Saul - denier.
Paul - believer.

 

[Tambora]

2 Chronicles 6:36 KJV
(36) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;


1 Kings 8:46 KJV
(46) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm not saying we have not all sinned. I think we are under the wrong assumption. Just because I'm pointing out Paul's bad doctrine, doesn't mean you can figure out what I believe on the subject. Try asking direct questions instead of making assumptions.

The title of your thread lead me to the conclusion that you were arguing that not all men are sinners:

"Paul’s false doctrine of everyone is a sinner" ​

So are you saying that Paul's teaching that everyone is a sinner is not false?

Before I comment on this commentary, let me say, again....
Quoting text that I have said is not authoritative to me, is meaningless to this discussion, and shows me that, you do not understand the words that are being typed onto the screen.

The verses which I quoted are from what you call the "real" Apostles. Can I not quote what those Apostles wrote? And can I quote what the Lord Jesus said?

You can quote scripture that has nothing to do with the topic all you want, but it doesn't carry any weight to me, I'm used to you pulling that.

OK, since you want to limit me to what is said in the OT then I will abide with your wishes. But I will ask you to do the same. OK?

I've already proven Paul is untrustworthy in my first post. Before you start using him as a source, try addressing the root issues in my first post. Ignoring the data and still pushing Paul doctrine without addressing the issues, par for the course. But it isn’t helping me clarify anything.

OK, to start I will address the passages which you think proves that Paul was deceiving his readers. You said:

Paul claimed to be a Rabbi's Rabbi, so he did know the Scripture and was purposefully deceiving the reader, or he lied and was not real Rabbi, and therefor maybe he didn't know he was misquoting all those Scriptures and teaching against what the Word of God has to say. Is there a third option?

Psalm 14:4-7

Let us look at this first passage which you cite in "bold":

"The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; their actions are revolting. There is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the human race to see if there is one who is wise, one who seeks God. 3 All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one. 4 Will evildoers never understand? They consume my people as they consume bread; they do not call on the Lord. 5 Then they will be filled with terror, for God is with those who are righteous. 6 You [sinners] frustrate the plans of the afflicted, but the Lord is his refuge. 7 Oh, that Israel's deliverance would come from Zion! When the Lord restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice; Israel will be glad" (Ps.14:1-7).​

I would guess that you are referring to what is underlined? Since you do not deny that all men sin then the "righteous" in this verse cannot be referring to men who are righteous by their own actions but instead to those who have received the imputed righteousness of God which Abraham received:

"He took him outside and said, "Look at the sky and count the stars, if you are able to count them." Then He said to him, "Your offspring will be that [numerous]."Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen.15:5-6).​

So the righteous ones spoken of at Psalm 14:5 are the ones who received the imputed righteousness of God. With that in view then nothing said in verses 1-3 of Psalm 14 is in error, is it?:

"The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; their actions are revolting. There is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the human race to see if there is one who is wise, one who seeks God. 3 All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one" (Ps.14:1-3).​

This is probably referring to the LORD looking down to examine the people at Babel (Gen.11:1-9).

I cannot find anything which is written here that is in error, can you? Since I believe that is true then I do not believe that Paul was deceiving anyone when he wrote this:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro.3:10-12).​

If you think that Paul was deceiving anyone by what he wrote there then tell me exactly how he was doing that.

Thanks!

 

[jshugart]

I count 7 questions in your last post, I will do my best to answer them. (How many of the 5 questions in my last post did you answer?)

The title of your thread lead me to the conclusion that you were arguing that not all men are sinners:

"Paul’s false doctrine of everyone is a sinner" ​

So are you saying that Paul's teaching that everyone is a sinner is not false?

Was Jesus a man in the flesh? Yes.
Did Jesus ever sin in his entire life? I’m willing to go on faith and say no, he never sinned.
Which of these two answers are false?
That doesn’t really answer your question directly I know. But that and the rest of my responses in this post should.

I guess my real problem with Paul here in Romans 3, is how he is asserting that there is only one class of people, sinners. No one is righteous, not even one. This concept is not in the original text being quoted by the Psalmist. Paul relies on the ignorance of the Romans to not know or understand the OT texts.

We don’t have to be sinners. Sure, we have all sinned, but we are looking at our lives living in a pagan society, under pagan laws. None of us were raised in a righteous household.
Walking the path of righteousness should be each of our goals.

Repentance is the key, see Ez 18. If you were repentant, and returned to righteousness, then that person is considered righteous, the sins have been forgiven. No pagan blood sacrifice needed. Just repentance.

According to Ez 18, if I have been forgiven my sins because of true repentance, and I return to the status called righteous, I’m not considered a sinner any more, am I?

I have two witnesses (Deut 19:15) that Paul said he never sinned, of course he also said he had issues with the commandment of; don’t covet. But I’m used to Paul being two faced and lying when he sees fit, as long as it is in the service of Paul’s Gospel.

The verses which I quoted are from what you call the "real" Apostles. Can I not quote what those Apostles wrote? And can I quote what the Lord Jesus said?

For now, let’s just leave it to OT texts.

OK, since you want to limit me to what is said in the OT then I will abide with your wishes. But I will ask you to do the same. OK?

I offered, you accepted, and I will do as you ask.

OK, to start I will address the passages which you think proves that Paul was deceiving his readers. You said:
Let us look at this first passage which you cite in "bold":

"The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; their actions are revolting. There is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the human race to see if there is one who is wise, one who seeks God. 3 All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one. 4 Will evildoers never understand? They consume my people as they consume bread; they do not call on the Lord. 5 Then they will be filled with terror, for God is with those who are righteous. 6 You [sinners] frustrate the plans of the afflicted, but the Lord is his refuge. 7 Oh, that Israel's deliverance would come from Zion! When the Lord restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice; Israel will be glad" (Ps.14:1-7).​

I would guess that you are referring to what is underlined? Since you do not deny that all men sin then the "righteous" in this verse cannot be referring to men who are righteous by their own actions but instead to those who have received the imputed righteousness of God which Abraham received:

"He took him outside and said, "Look at the sky and count the stars, if you are able to count them." Then He said to him, "Your offspring will be that [numerous]."Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen.15:5-6).​

Yes, I was referring to what is underlined. I was pointing at it, not fully explaining. I was expecting you could figure it out.

Just because you push Paul’s bad interpretation back at me, doesn’t mean it is correct. I know I just said not to use NT texts, so I won’t quote the texts. But you are not addressing my earlier issue about James and Paul both giving a different interpretation of Gen 15:5-6. You agree with Paul, I agree with James. You quoting and pushing Paul over and over, asserting the same point, without addressing the counter point I brought up earlier, does me no good. I give you permission to compare Paul and James on this interpretation if you want to.

According to Ez 18, if a sinner is repentant, and returns to the righteous path, they are considered righteous. At that point in time, their past sin has been forgiven, they are considered righteous, not a sinner. Did they sin in the past? Yes. Are they considered a sinner at this time? No. Are they considered righteous at this time? Yes.

So the righteous ones spoken of at Psalm 14:5 are the ones who received the imputed righteousness of God.

Says you and Paul. Which is fine, I’m glad you have an opinion. It differs from what James and I have to say. And nothing you’ve said here addresses that, and doesn’t hold any sway.

With that in view then nothing said in verses 1-3 of Psalm 14 is in error, is it?:

I have no problem with what vs 1-3 says. Psalm 14:1-7 is describing two classes of people, the fool\atheist\evil doer as compared to God’s people, described as the righteous (current tense used). The point is, Psalm 14 is teaching at the basic level that there are two classes of people, the sinner and the righteous. Paul teaches there is only one class of people, the sinner.

I cannot find anything which is written here that is in error, can you? Since I believe that is true then I do not believe that Paul was deceiving anyone when he wrote this:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro.3:10-12).​

I pointed out what was in error above. I count this one answered as I answered it above.
I know what you believe, we are arguing about how you feel I misunderstand everything.
Paul here is quoting Ps 14:1-3, and ignoring Ps 14:4-7 which if he had mentioned, would have disproven the point he was making, that there is only one class of people, sinners. In vs 10-12 he is describing the sinner, but not the righteous ones and their characteristics in vs 4-7.

If you think that Paul was deceiving anyone by what he wrote there then tell me exactly how he was doing that.
Thanks!

Paul teaches there is only one class of people, the sinner. I say he is purposely taking the OT text out of context. Let me give you an example of what I am trying to get across here:

Paul is teaching all people are “purple skinned”, and he gives multiple quotes out of the OT texts that show there are “purple skinned” people in the world. Therefore Paul has proven his assertion that there are only “purple skinned” people in the world.

However, what Paul lies by omission is the fact that each of those quotes he gave you for the “purple skinned”, also talked about a “gold skinned” people. Each OT text he quoted from has both of these different separate groups of people in it. But for some reason, he never mentions the fact that both of those people classes exist in the scripture he is quoting from.

So, is it an honest use of the underlying texts to teach that there is only one class of people, when the texts say something other than what you’re teaching? I call this dishonest, and if anyone did that other than Paul, you would say they were taking it out of context.

Direct questions in this post: 8

 

[Nihilo]

My father asked me to either join in on one of his threads or start my own. I’m doing this more as a check on my own beliefs than me trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m hoping my Dad and I can have some insightful discussion, and I may even learn something new.

My father is JerryShugart, If you have been on the Forums for any length of time, I’m sure you are aware of his beliefs. I would not call myself Christian, closest category I would place myself into is; Hebrew. My canon differs greatly from yours, as I reject most of the NT as inspired, and I reject all of Paul’s writings. Just giving you a heads up on where I’m coming from.

However, choosing Paul’s false teachings as my topic is bound to step on people’s toes, as Paul is the founder of modern Christianity. So please understand, I am not attacking you personally, I’m just pointing out things as I see them. I will try and be polite, but I have been called “snarky” in the past. I’m mainly posting here because my father asked me too (Ex 20:12).

Acts 17:10-11 has the basis from which I examine the entire NT. I compare what Paul has to say to the OT Scriptures, as he claims his teachings can all be found there. So I exhort you to use only the OT texts to prove to me Paul’s doctrine. I say it can’t be done, because he didn’t base his doctrine on OT Scripture.

I’m choosing this topic, because I honestly am looking for truth, no matter the cost. So if I’m wrong on this, I want to be shown where I’m wrong, so I can correct my views.

Whenever someone misquotes the bible, or takes a scripture out of context or outright says the Word says one thing, when it actually says something 180 degrees difference…. This person should be shown the error of their way and let everyone see it for what it was. So why is it any different when Paul does it?

The primary false doctrine of Paul is that we are all sinners, every last one of us, there is no one that is not considered a sinner. (Rom 3:23)

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. “ HCSB Rom 3:23

Of course that goes against what Jesus said in Matt 7:21-23, but that never bothers Paul, he contradicts Jesus all the time, but that is a discussion for another time.

Paul here in Romans chapter 3, uses OT quotes to backup his new doctrine. Six different times Paul calls the reader to a different OT text to back up his doctrine that there are only wicked people in the world, no one that isn’t wicked. I’ll list them here:

1.Rom 3:10-12 (quote from Psalm 14:1-3)
2.Rom 3:13a (quote from Psalm 5:9)
3.Rom 3:13b (quote from Psalm 140:3)
4.Rom 3:14 (quote from Psalm 10:7)
5.Rom 3:15-17 (quote from Isaiah 59:7-8)
6.Rom 3:18 (quote from Psalm 36:1)

No one debates these quotes. The problem though, is with the fact that those scriptures he is quoting from, don’t show that there are only wicked people in the earth. In each case, the scripture actually shows just the opposite, that there are in fact two classes of people, the wicked and the righteous. But thankfully the Romans didn’t know the OT, so it was OK for Paul to deceive them, because the ends justify the means in Paul’s philosophy (1 Cor 9:19-25).

Here is the list of the Scriptures that were overlooked and not quoted by Paul, because they would have disproved the point he was trying to deceive the Romans about. Did Paul not know the rest of the Scriptures, was this an honest mistake? Paul claimed to be a Rabbi's Rabbi, so he did know the Scripture and was purposefully deceiving the reader, or he lied and was not real Rabbi, and therefor maybe he didn't know he was misquoting all those Scriptures and teaching against what the Word of God has to say. Is there a third option?

1.Psalm 14:4-7
2.Psalm 5: 9-10 vs 11-12
3.Psalm 140:4, 8, 12, 13
4.Psalm 10:8
5.Isaiah 59:15, 20 and Isaiah 57:1-2, 21
6.Psalm 36:10

Read them in context, and not just the one reference from Paul.

Since I have shown these source texts of Paul’s to be exactly the opposite, they actually disprove Paul’s doctrine. So, does anyone else have any OT scriptures that show what Paul was trying to prove, that there are only one class of people, sinners, no one is in a group called Righteous.

I could not find anything on my own, but maybe a crowd source can help me find them. My assumption is that they don't exist, because if they did, Paul would have referenced them instead of trying to lie to us with misrepresented Scripture quotes.

Remember, please keep it to OT text.

You lack an appreciation for the hierarchy that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself designed and implemented for the oversight of His Church. He endowed His hand-picked Apostles with the power and authority to administer the Church, and today that power and authority has boiled down to its essence, which is infallibility in teaching on matters of faith, doctrine and morals.

Paul's teaching authority comes directly from the Lord, so without an appreciation for Who He is, you cannot find the answers you are looking for.

 

[Nihilo]

You lack an appreciation for the hierarchy that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself designed and implemented for the oversight of His Church. He endowed His hand-picked Apostles with the power and authority to administer the Church, and today that power and authority has boiled down to its essence, which is infallibility in teaching on matters of faith, doctrine and morals.

Paul's teaching authority comes directly from the Lord, so without an appreciation for Who He is, you cannot find the answers you are looking for.

So instead of attacking what Paul taught, you should examine the O.T. scriptures for what they teach about the Lord Jesus, because Paul's teaching authority rests upon the Lord's own choices, and ultimately upon Who the Lord is. He is God.

 

[God's Truth]

My father asked me to either join in on one of his threads or start my own. I’m doing this more as a check on my own beliefs than me trying to tell anyone they are wrong. I’m hoping my Dad and I can have some insightful discussion, and I may even learn something new.

My father is JerryShugart, If you have been on the Forums for any length of time, I’m sure you are aware of his beliefs. I would not call myself Christian, closest category I would place myself into is; Hebrew. My canon differs greatly from yours, as I reject most of the NT as inspired, and I reject all of Paul’s writings. Just giving you a heads up on where I’m coming from.

However, choosing Paul’s false teachings as my topic is bound to step on people’s toes, as Paul is the founder of modern Christianity. So please understand, I am not attacking you personally, I’m just pointing out things as I see them. I will try and be polite, but I have been called “snarky” in the past. I’m mainly posting here because my father asked me too (Ex 20:12).

Acts 17:10-11 has the basis from which I examine the entire NT. I compare what Paul has to say to the OT Scriptures, as he claims his teachings can all be found there. So I exhort you to use only the OT texts to prove to me Paul’s doctrine. I say it can’t be done, because he didn’t base his doctrine on OT Scripture.

I’m choosing this topic, because I honestly am looking for truth, no matter the cost. So if I’m wrong on this, I want to be shown where I’m wrong, so I can correct my views.

Whenever someone misquotes the bible, or takes a scripture out of context or outright says the Word says one thing, when it actually says something 180 degrees difference…. This person should be shown the error of their way and let everyone see it for what it was. So why is it any different when Paul does it?

The primary false doctrine of Paul is that we are all sinners, every last one of us, there is no one that is not considered a sinner. (Rom 3:23)

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. “ HCSB Rom 3:23

Of course that goes against what Jesus said in Matt 7:21-23, but that never bothers Paul, he contradicts Jesus all the time, but that is a discussion for another time.

Paul here in Romans chapter 3, uses OT quotes to backup his new doctrine. Six different times Paul calls the reader to a different OT text to back up his doctrine that there are only wicked people in the world, no one that isn’t wicked. I’ll list them here:

1.Rom 3:10-12 (quote from Psalm 14:1-3)
2.Rom 3:13a (quote from Psalm 5:9)
3.Rom 3:13b (quote from Psalm 140:3)
4.Rom 3:14 (quote from Psalm 10:7)
5.Rom 3:15-17 (quote from Isaiah 59:7-8)
6.Rom 3:18 (quote from Psalm 36:1)

No one debates these quotes. The problem though, is with the fact that those scriptures he is quoting from, don’t show that there are only wicked people in the earth. In each case, the scripture actually shows just the opposite, that there are in fact two classes of people, the wicked and the righteous. But thankfully the Romans didn’t know the OT, so it was OK for Paul to deceive them, because the ends justify the means in Paul’s philosophy (1 Cor 9:19-25).

Here is the list of the Scriptures that were overlooked and not quoted by Paul, because they would have disproved the point he was trying to deceive the Romans about. Did Paul not know the rest of the Scriptures, was this an honest mistake? Paul claimed to be a Rabbi's Rabbi, so he did know the Scripture and was purposefully deceiving the reader, or he lied and was not real Rabbi, and therefor maybe he didn't know he was misquoting all those Scriptures and teaching against what the Word of God has to say. Is there a third option?

1.Psalm 14:4-7
2.Psalm 5: 9-10 vs 11-12
3.Psalm 140:4, 8, 12, 13
4.Psalm 10:8
5.Isaiah 59:15, 20 and Isaiah 57:1-2, 21
6.Psalm 36:10

Read them in context, and not just the one reference from Paul.

Since I have shown these source texts of Paul’s to be exactly the opposite, they actually disprove Paul’s doctrine. So, does anyone else have any OT scriptures that show what Paul was trying to prove, that there are only one class of people, sinners, no one is in a group called Righteous.

I could not find anything on my own, but maybe a crowd source can help me find them. My assumption is that they don't exist, because if they did, Paul would have referenced them instead of trying to lie to us with misrepresented Scripture quotes.

Remember, please keep it to OT text.

I can help you. Paul is misunderstood. Don't let the misunderstandings of others cause you to judge Paul falsely. Don't be another one to misunderstand Paul. Don't go against Paul just because others misunderstand him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Was Jesus a man in the flesh? Yes.
Did Jesus ever sin in his entire life? I’m willing to go on faith and say no, he never sinned.
Which of these two answers are false?
That doesn’t really answer your question directly I know. But that and the rest of my responses in this post should.

i thought that this discussion was restricted to what is said in the OT. In the OT we read, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near" (1 Ki.8:46).

I guess my real problem with Paul here in Romans 3, is how he is asserting that there is only one class of people, sinners. No one is righteous, not even one. This concept is not in the original text being quoted by the Psalmist.

Here is what we read in the OT:

"For there is not a righteous man in the earth, who will do good, and not sin" (Eccl.7:21; LXX).​

You are right. this truth is not found in the original text of Psalm 14 but it is indeed found in the OT.

Paul relies on the ignorance of the Romans to not know or understand the OT texts.

Are you not aware that the "real" Apostles had copies of Paul's epistles and they accepted Him as a fellow Apostle? Of course the "real" Apostles had a better understanding of what was written in the OT than we will ever have and they did not think that Paul was deceiving anyone.

Repentance is the key, see Ez 18. If you were repentant, and returned to righteousness, then that person is considered righteous, the sins have been forgiven. No pagan blood sacrifice needed. Just repentance.

Yes, but let us look at what a person must do to be considered "just" in the eyes of God:

"But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right...Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD" (Ez.18:5,9).​

There was no one in the OT who did that because no men walked in the Lord's statutes and none kept His judgments, as witnessed by what is said here:

"For there is not a righteous man in the earth, who will do good, and not sin" (Eccl.7:21; LXX).​

For now, let’s just leave it to OT texts.

Yes, that is our agreement.

Yes, I was referring to what is underlined. I was pointing at it, not fully explaining. I was expecting you could figure it out.

Just because you push Paul’s bad interpretation back at me, doesn’t mean it is correct.

I used what is found in the OT, and this is the verse which I quoted:

"He took him outside and said, "Look at the sky and count the stars, if you are able to count them." Then He said to him, "Your offspring will be that [numerous]."Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness" (Gen.15:5-6).​

Therefore, since the OT reveals that there is "not a righteous man on the earth" then we can only believe that the following words can only be referring to those who "believed God" and the Lord credited them with righteousness (even though themselves were not righteous):

"Will evildoers never understand? They consume my people as they consume bread; they do not call on the Lord. 5 Then they will be filled with terror, for God is with those who are righteous" (Ps.14:4-5).​

Now let us look at what Paul wrote here again:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Ro.3:10-18).​

I have already showed you the verse which supports Paul's words that there are "none righteous." And what he says after that is a quoted from what we read here:

"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after god. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become good for nothing, there is none that does good, no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes" (Ps.14:2-3; LXX).​

This is probably referring to the LORD looking down to examine the people at Babel (Gen.11:1-9). So what Paul wrote at Romans 3:10-18 is fully supported by what the OT Scriptures reveal.

I cannot understand why you think that Paul was deceiving anyone. Please consider what I have said in this post and then tell me why you think that Paul was being deceptive in regard to what he wrote at Romans 3:10-18.

Thanks!

 

[jshugart]

Originally Posted by jshugart
Was Jesus a man in the flesh? Yes.
Did Jesus ever sin in his entire life? I’m willing to go on faith and say no, he never sinned.
Which of these two answers are false?
That doesn’t really answer your question directly I know. But that and the rest of my responses in this post should.

i thought that this discussion was restricted to what is said in the OT.

I was answering your question. Do you want me to answer or not? Where in my answer did I quote anything coming from any text, in the OT or NT? Or are you under the impression we can only respond by quoting OT texts to each other? If so, we aren’t going to get anywhere, real fast. Maybe I’m not understanding, can please explain what I’m doing wrong here.

You are right. this truth is not found in the original text of Psalm 14 but it is indeed found in the OT.

Thank you for coming out and admitting the point, well that is one point you admit. Now, do you concede on the other 5? That would save us so much time in discussion if you did.

Are you not aware that the "real" Apostles had copies of Paul's epistles and they accepted Him as a fellow Apostle?

Yes, I am aware of the text you are making reference too.

I cannot understand why you think that Paul was deceiving anyone.

Then why are we continuing with this discussion? I have considered what you have to say. You still can’t answer a direct question, even if it would save your life.
As soon as you concede the point that all six OT texts Paul quoted from, all show two classes of people, I will continue. Until then, I’m waiting to hear which of the remaining 5 texts I’m wrong about.
Can you focus on that?

 

[jshugart]

You lack an appreciation for the hierarchy that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself designed and implemented for the oversight of His Church. He endowed His hand-picked Apostles with the power and authority to administer the Church, and today that power and authority has boiled down to its essence, which is infallibility in teaching on matters of faith, doctrine and morals.

Paul's teaching authority comes directly from the Lord, so without an appreciation for Who He is, you cannot find the answers you are looking for.

Thanks.

 

[Nihilo]

Thanks.

There is a thorough and complete explanation for everything, but you cannot hope to perceive it without going in through the very narrow gate of faith, and that in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I was answering your question. Do you want me to answer or not? Where in my answer did I quote anything coming from any text, in the OT or NT? Or are you under the impression we can only respond by quoting OT texts to each other? If so, we aren’t going to get anywhere, real fast. Maybe I’m not understanding, can please explain what I’m doing wrong here.

Jack, so you made your point that the Lord Jesus is a Man and He did not sin. But that has nothing at all to do with what Paul quoted from the OT.

Thank you for coming out and admitting the point, well that is one point you admit.

Then why don't you admit that the following passage is found in the OT?:

"For there is not a righteous man in the earth, who will do good, and not sin" (Eccl.7:21; LXX).​

And that is exactly what Paul was referring to when he wrote this:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom.3:10).​

This is what you said:

I guess my real problem with Paul here in Romans 3, is how he is asserting that there is only one class of people, sinners. No one is righteous, not even one. This concept is not in the original text being quoted by the Psalmist. Paul relies on the ignorance of the Romans to not know or understand the OT texts.

You just assumed that Paul just made up his words that "no one is righteous, not one" and that is why you said "he relies on the ignorance of the Romans to not know or understand the OT texts." But I showed you that he did not just make that up because he was referring to what is said at Ecclesiastes 7:21. That was one of your reasons for charging Paul with deceiving people in his quotes from the OT at Romans 3:10-18.

And now you do not even want to talk about that fact. I also asked you the following question:

Are you not aware that the "real" Apostles had copies of Paul's epistles and they accepted Him as a fellow Apostle?​

To which you said:

Yes, I am aware of the text you are making reference too.

But then you did not even attempt to answer what I said about that:

Are you not aware that the "real" Apostles had copies of Paul's epistles and they accepted Him as a fellow Apostle? Of course the "real" Apostles had a better understanding of what was written in the OT than we will ever have and they did not think that Paul was deceiving anyone.​

If Paul was deceiving people by what he wrote at Romans 3:10-18 don't you think that the "real" Apostles would know it? I think that they would and since they accepted Paul as an Apostle then common sense dictates that they did not think that Paul was deceiving anyone.

Do you think that the "real" Apostles were duped by Paul?

As soon as you concede the point that all six OT texts Paul quoted from, all show two classes of people, I will continue.

In the following passage Paul was probably referring to the LORD looking down from heaven to examine the people at Babel (Gen.11:1-9). And then there was only "one" class of people:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Ro.3:10-18).​

If Paul was deceiving anyone with those words then tell me exactly what he wrote there which was deceiving anyone.

Besides that, what purpose would Paul be serving to be deceiving anyone about what he wrote there? How would that so-called bit of dishonesty further Paul's goals in anyway?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is a thorough and complete explanation for everything, but you cannot hope to perceive it without going in through the very narrow gate of faith, and that in the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is your point?

Thanks!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry Shugart's Son Denies the Trinity

Jerry Shugart's Son Denies the Trinity

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]

On the matter of affirming the Trinity...

I need to stop you here. I've defined above that my canon of Scripture is different than most. With a base understanding that using just the OT text as your basis of Scripture....
No I do not. I can't make the needed connections using the texts in my canon.

Dad...Prov. 22:6....sigh.

Son...rightly divide, especially the Old Testament:

Spoiler

To substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of “person” below).
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistences from each other.

1. There is only one true God:

OT: Exod 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; Deut 4:35,39; 6:4; 10:14; 32:39; 33:26; Josh 2:11; 1Sam 2:2; 2Sam 7:22; 1Ki 8:23,60; 2Ki 5:15;1Chr 16:26; 17:20; Neh 9:6; Ps 18:31; 71:19; 86:8-10; 96:5; 113:4f; Isa 37:16,20; 43:10f; 44:6,8; 45:5f,14,18,21f; 46:5,9f; Jer 10:6-10; Hos 13:4; Zech 14:9; Mal 2:10.

NT: Mark 12:29,32; John 5:44; 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5.

2. The Father is God:

OT: Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6; 2:10.

NT: Matt 6:9; John 6:27; 20:17; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; 4:6; 5:20; 6:23; Phil 1:2; 2:11; 4:20; Col 1:2; 3:17; 1Thes 1:1,3; 3:11,13; 2Thes 1:1f; 2:16; 1Tim 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Jude 1:1.

3. The Son is God:

A) Called God or Ascribed Deity:

OT: Gen 19:24; Ps 45:7; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5f; Zech 2:8-3:2; 12:1,10

NT: Matt 1:22f; John 1:1; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:5-9; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:3,8-12; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 5:20.

B) Possess the Attributes of God.

1) Personal: All of Jesus’ interactions with people in the Gospels are proof of His personhood (e.g, Matt 3:13-15; 4:18-22; 8:1-22; 9:1-38). Jesus is also specifically said to possess wisdom (Luke 2:52), a will (Luke 22:42), and a mind (1Cor 2:16; Phil 2:5).

2) Creator and Sustainer: John 1:3; Col 1:16f; Heb 1:2 (cp. Job 9:8; Isa 44:24).

3) Live Giver: John 1:4; 4:10-14; 5:21; 6:40, 44; 11:25; Acts 3:15; 1Cor 15:45; 1John 5:11; Rev 1:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Not applicable due to the incarnation. Jesus now has a real physical body.

5) Omnipresent: Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 1:48; 3:13; Eph 1:22f; 4:10.

6) Omniscient: Matt 9:4; 11:27; 12:25; Mark 2:8; 12:15; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17; John 2:23-25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Rev 2:23.

7) Knows the Future: Matt 16:21; 17:22f; 20:17-19,22f; 24:1-25; 26:21-25,31-35; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 13:1-23; 14:27-30,72; Luke 9:22,44; 18:31-33; 21:5-24; 22:10-13; John 2:19; 6:64,70f; 13:11,36-38; 21:18f.

8) Omnipotent: Matt 28:18; Phil 3:20f; Rev 1:8; 3:7.

9) Sovereign: Dan 7:13f; Matt 17:24-27; 28:18; Acts 10:36; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3.

10) King over all the earth/ King of kings: Psalm 45:1-7; Dan 7:13f; Matt 25:34,40; John 18:37; Heb 1:8; Rev 11:15; 17:14; 19:16.

11) Lord of all the earth/ Lord of lords: Matt 11:27; Phil 2:9-11; Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12; Rev 17:14; 19:16.

12) God over all false gods/ God of gods: John 10:31-39; Acts 17:18,31; 1Cor 8:5f.

13) Incomprehensible: Matt 11:27; Eph 3:19.

14) Eternal (The First and the Last/ The Alpha and Omega/ The Beginning and End): Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; 17:5,24; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8,10f; 7:3; Rev 1:8,11,17f; 2:8; 11:15; 22:12-16.

15) Self-Existent (I Am/ The Living God): I Am! Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; John 6:20; 8:24,58; 13:19; 18:5f,8 (Note: Some versions have “It is I” in these verses, but the literal phrase is “I Am!”) Other: John 5:26; 1Cor 15:45.

16) Immutable/ Faithful/ Worthy of Trust: Phil 2:24; 1Thes 5:24; 2Thes 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2:17; 3:2; 10:23; 13:8; Rev 3:14,17; 19:11.

17) Perfect/ Incomparable/ Awesome/ Great: Judg 13:6; Luke 13:32; John 6:68; Heb 2:10; 5:9; 12:2; 2Pet 1:16 (cp. Luke 9:43).

18) Good/ Goodness: John 7:12; 10:32; Acts 10:38; Eph 2:7.

19) Holy: Josh 5:13-15 (cp, Exod 3:5); Isa 53:9; Matt 26:59f; Luke 5:8; John 8:46; 2Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; Rev 1:17.

20) Righteous and Just: Zech 9:9; Matt 12:20; 27:19,24; Luke 18:8; 23:47; John 5:20; 7:18; Acts 3:14; 22:14; 1Cor 1:30; 1Tim 3:16; 2Tim 4:8; Heb 1:9; 1Pet 3:18; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 1:9; 2:29; 19:11.

21) Truth: Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14,32; John 1:14,17; 7:18; 8:40,45f; 14:6; 18:37; 2Cor 11:10; Eph 4:21; 1John 5:20; Rev 3:7,14; 19:11.

22) Light: Matt 4:16; 17:2; 24:27; Luke 1:78f; 2:32; 17:24; John 1:4,9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35f,46; Acts 9:3f; 22:6-11; 26:12-18; Eph 5:14; Rev 21:23.

23) Judge: Ps 2:7-9; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46 [cp. Ezek 34:17]; John 5:22-27; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom 2:16; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 5:10f; Eph 6:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Jam 5:9; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 2:23; 19:11.

24) Fire: Matt 3:10-12; Luke 3:16f; 2Thes 1:7f; Rev 1:14 (cp. Dan 7:9); 19:12.

25) Wrath: Ps 2:12; Rev 6:15-17; 19:15.

26) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Matt 9:36; 14:14; 15:32; 20:28,34; Mark 1:41; 6:34; 8:2; Luke 7:13; John 1:14,17; 13:1; 15:9-13; Acts 15:11; Rom 5:21; 8:35; 16:20; 1Cor 16:23; 2Cor 5:14; 13:14; Gal 6:18; Eph 3:19; Phil 4:23; 1Thes 5:28; 2Thes 3:18; 1Tim 1:2; 2Tim 1:2,18; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:25; 2John 1:3; Jude 1:21; Rev 22:21.

27) Forgives Sin: Mark 2:5-11; Luke 7:47-50; Col 3:13; Jam 5:15.

28) Redeems/ Redeemer: Rom 3:24; 1Cor 1:30 Gal 3:13; 4:4f; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Titus 2:14; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pet 1:18f; Rev 5:9; 14:3f.

29) Saves/ Savior: Zech 9:9; Matt 1:21; 18:11; Luke 2:11; 9:56; 19:10; John 3:17; 4:42; 10:9; 5:34; 12:47; Acts 2:47; 4:12; 5:31; 13:23;16:30f; Rom 5:9f; 10:8-13; Eph 5:23; Phil 3:20; 1Tim 1:15; 2Tim 1:10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; Heb 2:10; 7:25; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10.

30) Rock: Rom 9:33; 1Cor 10:4; 1Pet 2:7f.

31) Shepherd: Mic 5:4; Matt 25:32; John 10:11,14-16; Heb 13:20; 1Peter 2:25; 5:4; Rev 7:16f.

32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

33) Glorious/ Wonderful: Judg 13:18; Isa 4:2; 9:6; 11:10; Matt 21:15; 25:31; Luke 13:17; Titus 2:13.

34) Hears and Answers Prayer: John 14:13f; Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8f; 1John 5:13-15; Rev 5:8 (cp. 8:4).

35) Worthy of Worship and All Praise: Josh 5:13f; Matt 14:33; 21:9,16f; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Phil 2:10f; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 1:6; 2Peter 3:18; Rev 5:8-14. While it is true that some of these attributes could be said about people or angels, no person or angel possesses almost all of them as Jesus Christ does. Thus putting all of them together is strong proof Jesus is fully God.

C) Additional Attributes of Deity:
Controls the weather: Matt 14:30-33; Mark 4:36-41; (cp. Job 38:25-38; Ps 135:7).
Gives commandments: Matt 5:27f,31-48 (cp. Exod 20:1-17).
Fills the hungry soul: John 6:48-51 (cp. Ps 107:9).
Receives sacred service (Gr., latreuo): Rev 22:3 (cp. Matt 4:10).

D) Theophanies = Christophanies:
The NT teaches no on can see God (John 1:18; 6:46). But people did see the Lord in the OT (e.g., Isa 6:1-8). Appearances of the Lord in the OT are actually appearances of God the Son (John 12:37,41). It is God the Father that people cannot see (1Tim 6:16).

E) The Angel of the Lord and the Lord:
In the OT, the Angel of the Lord is both distinct from the Lord and identified with Him. The appearances of the Angel of the Lord are appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

Distinct subsistences (“persons”): 2Sam 24:16f; 1Chr 21:15f,27; Zech 1:12. Same Person: Gen 22:1f,11f,15f; Gen 28:10-22 (cp. 31:11-13); 48:15f (Note: “bless” is singular). Exod 3:2,4 Exod 13:21; 14:19. Exod 20:1f; Deut 1:6-8; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 6:11-21 (cp. vv.11f with v.14) Judg 13:21f. Hosea 12:3-5.

F) God and the Lamb: In the Revelation, God and the Lamb are distinct and from each other yet identified with each other. Rev 7:10,17; 21:22f; 22:1,3 (cp. Isa 60:19f).

G) OT Passages in NT:
Passages in the OT referring to God are quoted or alluded to in the NT as referring to the Son. Ps 8:2 / Matt 21:16. Ps 102:25-27 / Heb 1:10-12. Ps 130:8 / Matt 1:21. Isa 26:19; 60:1 / Eph 5:14. Isa 40:3/ Matt 3:3 Isa 43:10 / Acts 1:8. Isa 45:23 / Phil 2:10. Jer 2:13; 17:13 / John 4:13f; 7:37. Jer 9:24 / 2Cor 10:17f. Jer 17:10 / Rev 2:23. Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13. Mal 3:1 / Mark 1:2.

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.

A) Has a mind and a will. Rom 8:27; 1Cor 12:11.

B) Acts 13:1-5: Speaks, commands, and calls: verse 2. Refers to Himself with personal pronouns: “to Me” and “I” - verse 2. Sends out missionaries: verse 4.

C) Elsewhere in the Book of Acts:
Inspires Scripture: Acts 1:16.
Is lied to: Acts 5:3.
Bears witness: Acts 5:32.
Instructs: Acts 8:29.
Comforts: Acts 9:31.
Tells and sends: Acts 10:19f; 11:12.
Knows what is good: Acts 15:28.
Forbids: Acts 16:6f.
Testifies: Acts 20:23.
Appoints church officers: Acts 20:28.
Prophesies: Acts 28:25.

D) Elsewhere in the Bible:
Hovers: Gen 1:2 (cp. Deut 32:11).
Speaks: 2Sam 23:2; Ezek 2:2-3:14,24ff; 11:5-12; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 21:11; 28:25; 1Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:1,6,13,22; 14:13; 22:17.
Gives plans: 1Chr 28:11f.
Instructs: Neh 9:20.
Sends: Isa 48:16; Ezek 2:2f.
Grieves: Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:21.
Leads: Matt 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1; Rom 8:14.
Speaks for believers: Matt 10:19f.
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31f; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10.
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 14:26.
Witnesses: John 15:26; Heb 10:15-17; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1John 5:6.
Assures, leads, bears witness, and enables: Rom 8:14-17.
Helps and makes intercession: Rom 8:26f (cp. v.34; 1Tim 2:5).
Loves: Rom 15:30.
Searches: 1Cor 2:10f.
Justifies: 1Cor 6:11.
Gives gifts: 1Cor 12:8-11; Heb 2:4.
Fellowships: 2Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1.
Reveals: Eph 3:5.
Instructs: 1Tim 4:1; Heb 9:8.
Is insulted: Heb 10:29.
Commands: Rev 22:17.

E) John 14:16: The Spirit is “another Counselor” (allos parakletos) besides Jesus (1John 2:1; the Greek word is also parakletos). Note also, allos indicates another of the same kind. It is distinct from heteros, which indicators another of a different kind (e.g., Gal 1:6f, “different” in v. 6 is heteros, “another” in v. 7 is allos). Since Jesus is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be of the same kind and thus a Person also.

5. The Holy Spirit is God:

A) Equated with God: Exod 29:45f; Haggai 2:5. 2Sam 23:2f Acts 5:3,4. Rom 5:5; 2Thes 3:5. 1Cor 12:6,11,18. 2Cor 3:17f.

B) Possesses the Attributes of God:

1) Personal: See previous section.

2) Creator: Gen 1:2b; Job 26:13; Ps 104:30.

3) Live Giver: Gen 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4; Rom 8:2,11; 1Pet 3:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Self-evident.

5) Omnipresent: Numb 11:25f; Ps 139:7-10; Joel 2:28f; John 3:34; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 8:15-17; 10:44; 19:6; Rom 5:5; 8:9; 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6; 2Tim 1:14.

6) Omniscient: Isa 43:10; 1Cor 2:10f.

7) Knows the Future: Luke 2:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 11:28; 20:22f; 21:11,33; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pet 1:11.

8) Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37; Rom 15:19.

9) Eternal: Heb 9:14.

10) Good/ Goodness: Neh 9:20; Ps 143:10.

11) Holy: “Holy Spirit” appears 95 times. See also Rom 1:4.

12) Truth: John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1John 5:6.

13) Fire: Acts 2:3f; Rev 4:5.

14) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29.

15) Glorious/ Wonderful: 2Cor 3:8; 1Peter 4:14.

16) Hears and Answers Prayer: Rom 8:26f; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20. The number of attributes of God ascribed to the Spirit is not as all-encompassing as for the Son, but number is still significant and sufficient to establish His deity.

C) Additional Attributes of God:
Calls into ministry: Acts 13:2; 20:28.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:20f; Rev 2:7.
Gives eternal life: John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5.

D) The Temple of God = The Temple of the Holy Spirit:
The bodies of Christians are described as being the temple of God and as being the temple of the Holy Spirit since we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is God. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16; Eph 3:19; 5:18.

E) The Spirit's Words are Equated with God's Words: Lev 16:1-34 / Heb 9:7f. Isa 6:9f / Acts 28:25-27. Jer 31:33f / Heb 10:15f.

6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

A) In the OT:
Gen 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh 9:20; Ps 2:1-9; Prov 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan 7:13f; Zech 2:8-3:2.

B) In the Gospels:
Matt 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

C) In the Book of Acts:
2:22-36; 3:13-15,19f,26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.

D) In the Pauline Epistles:
Rom 1:1-9; 1Cor 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2Cor 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim 1:1f; 2Tim 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:3.

E) In the General Epistles and The Revelation:
Heb 1:1-9,13; 2:9,17; 5:5-10; 7:25; 9:14,24; 10:5-13; 12:2; 13:20f; Jam 1:1; 1Pet 1:1-3,17-21; 2:4-6; 3:18,22; 5:10; 1John 1:3,7; 2:1; 4:7-10; 5:6,11; 2John 1:3,9; Jude 1:1,20f; Rev 1:1-6; 5:9f,13; 21:22f; 22:1,17.

A steadfast denial of the Triune Godhead leaves no man warrant to claim he is a believer. Below the fold you go, young sir. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry Shugart's Son Denies the Trinity

Where did you get that?

 

[Samie]

So, does anyone else have any OT scriptures that show what Paul was trying to prove, that there are only one class of people, sinners, no one is in a group called Righteous.

My wild guess is that you were trying to say Paul was teaching there is only one group of people on earth, the sinners, and there is no group called the righteous. I don't think Paul exactly meant what you thought he meant in the verses that you used to illustrate your point.

I believe Paul taught that there are two groups of people on earth: 1) the RIGHTEOUS and 2) the UNRIGHTEOUS. Admittedly, he also taught that all in both groups have sinned, which explains why he said all have sinned and therefore sinners. Those in the RIGHTEOUS group are those who repented of their sins; those in the other group are those who did not.

But since you don't believe in what Paul wrote, I don't think it is worth enumerating the verses where Paul referred to the two different groups. I could cite a couple if just to show that indeed Paul taught there are two groups of people on earth and not just one.

For starters, you may read Rom 2:1-11. Did you notice the two groups - one group to receive eternal life, and the other group to receive the wrath of God?