pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

[KingdomRose]

Let me ask you about a different situation:

Was Abraham wrong for taking armed servants to battle against the kings of the land to rescue Lot and his household? (See Genesis 14, if you've forgotten the story.)

That was an entirely different situation. Abraham regularly and routinely spoke with Jehovah about what to do, and aligned himself with Jehovah's will. Since Christ was on Earth Jehovah hasn't been telling any military leader what to do. None of them are waiting to get instructions from Jehovah. In fact, Moshe Dyan of Israel back in the 60s said that God had nothing to do with his strategies and actions. I remember that well. Do you think even U.S. presidents listen to God telling them what to do? I laugh at that idea.

 

[KingdomRose]

I don't "agree" with it. It seems as though you are of the mind that warfare is like a sporting contest, scheduled and arranged by promoters, something like the ancient Roman gladiator games. In such an opinion as this, it would make sense that we all just need to agree that warfare is immoral. But this isn't how warfare happens.

Warfare occurs because one group of people are aggressive against another group of people. I don't agree with or condone any aggression, and I strongly support the right of the recipients of any aggression, being able to defend themselves, up to and including, if need be, with lethal force.

I totally agree with your first paragraph.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That was an entirely different situation. Abraham regularly and routinely spoke with Jehovah about what to do, and aligned himself with Jehovah's will.

It was different? How is going to war back then versus in Jesus' time any different other than the technologies and strategies used? Where, in Genesis 14, does it show Abram talking with God about what to do about Lot's situation?

Since Christ was on Earth Jehovah hasn't been telling any military leader what to do.

Maybe that's because our government is Godless and doesn't care what He says?

None of them are waiting to get instructions from Jehovah.

Neither did Abram.

In fact, Moshe Dyan of Israel back in the 60s said that God had nothing to do with his strategies and actions. I remember that well.

So? Again, neither did Abram.

Do you think even U.S. presidents listen to God telling them what to do? I laugh at that idea.

I think God made man to be creative enough to not require God's suggestion at every decision.

But again, I ask, where does Genesis 14 state that Abraham first talked to God about going to war to recover his family?

KR, Genesis 14 does not have anywhere that Abraham stopped to talk to God about going to war.

They also took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram.Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people. - Genesis 14:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis14:12-16&version=NKJV

It literally says that Abram, as soon as he heard about Lot, armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants and went in persuit of his enemy. He used military strategies to defeat his enemy and bring back Lot and his family.

Now, tell me the difference between Abram doing all of that, going to war against those who had attacked his family and neighbors, and, say, President Roosevelt taking us to war against Japan who had attacked us, and the rest of the Axis powers who were attacking other innocent nations.

Oh, and that word I bolded above? "Trained"? That shows that Abram had the foresight to train men to fight.

 

[meshak]

Jesus does not advocate any kind of violence. Violence is for the world, not for Jesus and His followers.

If you want to involved in the violent practice or advocate, please do not claim to be a Christian. Advocating any kind of violence you are misrepresenting God and Jesus.

If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost.

This is my statement, not for debate.

 

[ok doser]

This is my statement, not for debate.

so put it in your signature line :idunno:

 

[meshak]

so put it in your signature line :idunno:

good idea, I will. thanks

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus does not advocate any kind of violence. Violence is for the world, not for Jesus and His followers.

You clearly don't know the Bible then, or Jesus, for that matter.

If you want to involved in the violent practice or advocate, please do not claim to be a Christian.[/QUOTE}

You can't tell me not to claim to be a Christian because I advocate justice. That's just not how it works.

Christians should be advocating for justice, not for apathy, aka pacifism.

Advocating any kind of violence you are misrepresenting God and Jesus.

Actually, it's the opposite.

If you advocate pacifism, you are inherently claiming to be apathetic towards your neighbor.

If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost.

No, because that's called apathy. God did not give us the right to be apathetic toward our neighbor.

This is my statement, not for debate.

Then why are you even on TOL?

 

[Tambora]

Jesus does not advocate any kind of violence.

GOD does.

Violence is for the world, not for Jesus and His followers.

That's not what GOD says.

If you want to involved in the violent practice or advocate, please do not claim to be a Christian. Advocating any kind of violence you are misrepresenting God and Jesus.

If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost.

That's not what GOD says.

Violence, like anything else, can be used for good or bad.

This is not for debate.

 

[Tambora]

You clearly don't know the Bible then, or Jesus, for that matter.

If you want to involved in the violent practice or advocate, please do not claim to be a Christian.[/QUOTE}

You can't tell me not to claim to be a Christian because I advocate justice. That's just not how it works.

Christians should be advocating for justice, not for apathy, aka pacifism.



Actually, it's the opposite.

If you advocate pacifism, you are inherently claiming to be apathetic towards your neighbor.



No, because that's called apathy. God did not give us the right to be apathetic toward our neighbor.

:thumb:

Then why are you even on TOL?

She's a troll.

 

[meshak]

Then why are you even on TOL?

I dont, I make statements about what Jesus teaches. Christianity is all about Jesus' teachings. You ought to know that.


Because you don't know what He teaches, you are misrepresenting Jesus a big time.

 

[CherubRam]

[h=3]There are many bible verses like this one.

Christ Defeats the Beast
[/h]¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]Habakkuk 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 In wrath you strode through the earth
and in anger you threshed the nations.
13 You came out to deliver your people,
to save your anointed one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Anointed One is the Morning Star of Revelation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 2:28[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will also give that one the morning star.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[meshak]

They are all spiritual wars, not physical wars.

 

[Danoh]

They are all spiritual wars, not physical wars.

Ever hear of Iwo Jima?

You and yours in Okinawa would not even have your lives, let alone the freedoms you enjoy; if not for all the young men who lost their lives on that island not too far from yours - because Japan: your horrible horrible oppressor; had to be stopped at any cost.

All wars are "spiritual."

Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

[meshak]

Ever hear of Iwo Jima?

You and yours in Okinawa would not even have your lives, let alone the freedoms you enjoy; if not for all the young men who lost their lives on that island not too far from yours - because Japan: your horrible horrible oppressor; had to be stopped at any cost.

All wars are "spiritual."

Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Earthly wars are not spiritual. It is worldly cause, not heavenly cause.

And I don't play "if" games.

If you trust Jesus, you will understand spiritual things.

 

[CherubRam]

They are all spiritual wars, not physical wars.

Not so.

[FONT=&quot]Habakkuk 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 You came out to deliver your people,
to save your anointed one.
You crushed the leader of the land of wickedness,
you stripped him from head to foot.
14 With his own spear you pierced his head
when his warriors stormed out to scatter us,[/FONT]

 

[meshak]

Not so.

[FONT="]Habakkuk 3[/FONT][/B]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]13 You came out to deliver your people,
to save your anointed one.
You crushed the leader of the land of wickedness,
you stripped him from head to foot.
14 With his own spear you pierced his head
when his warriors stormed out to scatter us,[/FONT]

Jesus explains simply and clearly what Christianity is all about.

It seems that you are confused what you are quoting.

Read the OP please. It is Jesus' word.

 

[Danoh]

Earthly wars are not spiritual. It is worldly cause, not heavenly cause.

And I don't play "if" games.

If you trust Jesus, you will understand spiritual things.

Nope.

All wars and conflict are spiritual.

Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Luke 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

YOU do NOT know what YOU are talking about.

AS USUAL.

 

[meshak]

Nope.

All wars and conflict are spiritual.

do you think we will have the wars in heaven or second lives?

 

[Danoh]

do you think we will have the wars in heaven or second lives?

Not after all the spiritual is finally settled.

Including this yet future spiritual war of wars...and one more after that one...

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

But the Power of Darkness and the Flesh is what is behind all physical conflict.

It was a spiritual force that was behind the Physical Crucifixion of Christ.