ECT Our triune God

[jerzy]

I started this thread with this also in mind:

It seems to confirm the contentious nature suspected as I gave clear posting instruction to avoid debate and asked anti-trinitarians not to post.

Let's put it in the context, Lon:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[jerzy]

John shows us who Jesus is; the Word who is with God and is God.

What you think about this Trinitarian admitance?

Besides, they don’t know that the reason our Bibles translate logos as word is that Jerome, a monk of the early fifth century, mistranslated it as verbum. http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=255. Jerome’s Vulgate, as it is called, became the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and the texts Jerome used have become the mainstay of contemporary liberal versions. The Latin term Verbum became Word in English.

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

You haven't noticed that the Trinitarians made Jesus a second God the Father.

Are you suggesting that Thomas has nullified in one verse all what God said through the entire scriptures that the Father was the only true God?

Did Jesus know that he was God?

Did the apostles know that Jesus was God?

What warrants rendering of the multiple meaning word theos as God in Jn 20:28 in contradiction of the immediate text like Jn 4:23; 14:6, 14:10, 17:3, 20:17, 20:31 as well as the broader Bible’s text?

But the Father has given to the Son to judge;

So Jesus is second in charge. Is it fitting for god?

And there is distinction between the Son and the Spirit;

True. The Father gives authority and power to Jesus.

Whomever blasphemes the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven.
This proves conclusively that there IS some distinction.

So the Holy Spirit is above Jesus, isn’t he?

The pre-existence of Jesus

What you make of this?

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rev 13:8 …the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose… which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Well, God has chosen and saved us before the world began. Are we Gods too?

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.

Good point.

One is above the other.

See this:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

Scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

You said it right.

The Spirit of God not God the Spirit.

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

You are 100% correct.

The Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God not God the Spirit.

You need to find out what the Spirit of God really is.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

[/QUOTE]

Not enough for me.

The rendering of Isa 9:6 is contrary to the entire scriptures.

It is a clear Trinitarian forgery.

The Spirit of God descended upon Jesus as foretold by Isa 11:1-3, 42:1+6.

The Father is the only true God and the eternal life is for them who know it.


You need to show where is written that God is Trinity.

Or.

Where Jews were told that the one God their father became a triune God.

Or.

Where is written that hundreds of fool proof texts that the Father is our / the only true God was nullified and that the eternal life is for them who know that God is triune.

 

[jerzy]

They are guests on an evangelical forum. They are being disruptive and should be banned for a season. Their Arian views were condemned centuries ago as heretical.

Valid point, godrulz.

Kill them all and burn the Bibles and ancient scripts.

Commission Westcott and Hort to re-write the scripts your way.

 

[jerzy]

Jesus is the dividing line. Those who worship Him as God are Christians; those who say he is a mere creature are cultists. This is an essential, salvific issue. The person and work of Jesus divides in this case.

Have you ever been able to support any of your clearly pagan flavoured "views" with scriptures or just keep mumbling baloneys?

 

[-FoC-]

What you think about this Trinitarian admitance?

Besides, they don’t know that the reason our Bibles translate logos as word is that Jerome, a monk of the early fifth century, mistranslated it as verbum. http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=255. Jerome’s Vulgate, as it is called, became the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and the texts Jerome used have become the mainstay of contemporary liberal versions. The Latin term Verbum became Word in English.

What *I* think, chap, is that I get MY view straight from scripture itself. I dont give a rats rear what the RCC or Jerome have to say in the matter.
Easy enough?

You haven't noticed that the Trinitarians made Jesus a second God the Father.

Complete nonsense.
I accept what scripture presents as a whole. I dont call myself 'trinitarian' and I certainly havent let anyone tell me what to believe.
Just as my short study presented there, I get what I believe from GODS WORD.

Are you suggesting that Thomas has nullified in one verse all what God said through the entire scriptures that the Father was the only true God?

Thats a laugh, gent, given that FACT that I presented MORE than one statement by Thomas. Did you somehow miss the REST of my post?

Did Jesus know that he was God?

DID He?

Did the apostles know that Jesus was God?

What did Thomas say again?

So Jesus is second in charge. Is it fitting for god?

Rhetorical nonsense.
I dont make the rules, chap, I just read and accept what scripture SAYS in the matter.
Your questions are irrelevant.

 

[jerzy]

The incarnation, Deity, death, resurrection of Christ is core gospel truth. You simply cannot have a false Christ or deny His resurrection and be preaching the true gospel.

You need to tell us first how man like you could kill God.

How could a pot destroy the potter?

Here comes your wisdom.

 

[-FoC-]

You need to show where is written that God is Trinity.

What a laugh.
'truth' is rarely wholely shown in ONE passage in the scriptures, chap. More time than not the WHOLE truth is found in the harmonization of NUMEROUS passages. Any REAL student of scripture knows that....and they certainly do not place such a ridiculous demand on the text that you just have.

I have shown EVIDENCES from scripture that God is triune in nature.
Id dont need to show you any single verse that says verbatim 'God is triune' and such a demand is clearly from one who clearly does not comprehend the concept of 'evidence', and certainly is not much of a Bible 'student'.

Where Jews were told that the one God their father became a triune God.

Not relevant. There are many things that werent made clear until Christ.
And even then it would not matter. Paul shows clearly that the Jews didnt really comprehend the OT scriptures because their minds were veiled.

Where is written that hundreds of fool proof texts that the Father is our / the only true God was nullified and that the eternal life is for them who know that God is triune.

Again, you clearly are oblivious to the concept of 'evidence'.
I gave you very plain evidence that our God IS in fact triune.
Its not my job to convince you....nor will I waste my time doing so. If you are blinded to the truth, that is on you to change your heart and accept it...or to remain blind to it.

 

[-FoC-]

Have you ever been able to support any of your clearly pagan flavoured "views" with scriptures or just keep mumbling baloneys?

That is your foundational error. You think that pagans cannot have ANY truth and that is just a load of nonsense.
Pretty much EVERY false doctrine out there is dangerous for ONE reason...they are based on MANY TRUTHS and so deceive people because they DO have a lot of truth in them....but the error is what kills.

That pagans stumbled on to truth and contain truth does not negate that it IS truth.

That the RCC believes in the truth of our triune God DOES NOT negate that truth.

But it does say a lot that you have chosen to reject a truth of God simply because some pagan believes it too.

 

[-FoC-]

I will not say that Jesus is Almighty God because the bible doesn't say that. That is a derived doctrine, not a stated truth.

Hmmm.
Little note....pretty much ALL doctrine is 'derived' in that rarely is ANY truth found in whole in ONE short passage. Ive yet to see the COMPLETE truth in any matter presented IN WHOLE in a single verse or short passage.

Those who believe they find Gods whole truth in a verse or two are deluded. Ive been a student of scripture since 1985 and after many tens of thousands of hours of study I am still coming across things not seen before when details are compared together.

The trinity concept IS 'derived' as almost ALL Biblical truths are.
For someone to call themselves 'student' then place these ridiculous demands on the texts exposes the person for being less of a student and more of one who just likes to argue their own position regardless of what the evidence actually shows overall.

 

[-FoC-]

Those that speak in tongues are not in the Body of Christ.

Really?
Then you can please explain Paul telling them to NOT FORBID speaking in tongues, I assume.

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:39

Make it good, heretic....Im in the mood for a laugh.
According to your nonsense Paul must have been a heretic himself for ALLOWING tongues.

 

[jerzy]

What *I* think, chap, is that I get MY view straight from scripture itself. I dont give a rats rear what the RCC or Jerome have to say in the matter.
Easy enough?

Can you show me in the scriptures, not in the Trinitarian forgery, that logos mean Jesus?

Complete nonsense.
I accept what scripture presents as a whole. I dont call myself 'trinitarian' and I certainly havent let anyone tell me what to believe.
Just as my short study presented there, I get what I believe from GODS WORD.

Do you believe this?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Tell me why if your answer is not.

Thats a laugh, gent, given that FACT that I presented MORE than one statement by Thomas. Did you somehow miss the REST of my post?

I am old and could have missed it.
Could you do me a favour and re-post those statements of Thomas?

DID He?

He never mentioned that he was God.

Could he lie?

What did Thomas say again?

I have asked you how could Thomas say something that neither Jesus no the apostles new about?

How could he nullify all the scriptures with a single saying?

Or.

Did the Trinitarians render the vulnerable text out of the scriptural context?

Rhetorical nonsense.
I dont make the rules, chap, I just read and accept what scripture SAYS in the matter.
Your questions are irrelevant.

Are my questions irrelevant or you can’t respond without making God a liar?

Why God had to receive power from another God?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why God has to become subject to another God?

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


You need to respond to the legitimate questions instead of hiding your head in sand.

 

[-FoC-]

Jesus is the dividing line. Those who worship Him as God are Christians; those who say he is a mere creature are cultists. This is an essential, salvific issue. The person and work of Jesus divides in this case.

Agreed.
Something Thomas very clearly understood.

 

[-FoC-]

Can you show me in the scriptures, not in the Trinitarian forgery, that logos mean Jesus?

thats pretty funny.
You'll bash every possible Bible text out there if it doesnt agree with your garbage.
Ive shown you the scriptures....deal with it.

 

[-FoC-]

Do you believe this?

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Tell me why if your answer is not.

Do YOU believe THIS?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Joh 1 KJV)

Tell me why if your answer is not.

 

[-FoC-]

I am old and could have missed it.
Could you do me a favour and re-post those statements of Thomas?

Typical.
Heres a link..

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2672527&postcount=21

If I post the article again Knight's head will probably explode.

He never mentioned that he was God.

More irrelevant crap again.
If Obama NEVER SAYS "I am president" expressly, does that NEGATE that he is?
See how that works?

I have asked you how could Thomas say something that neither Jesus no the apostles new about?

How could he nullify all the scriptures with a single saying?

Again...and this time try paying attention....
I gave you MORE THAN just Thomas' words in my original post here.
Not MY problem if you cant read or didnt take the time to do so.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2672527&postcount=21

Did the Trinitarians render the vulnerable text out of the scriptural context?

...yawn...
thats right....your god is so feeble that he cant even protect his own book :think:

 

[jerzy]

What a laugh.
'truth' is rarely wholely shown in ONE passage in the scriptures, chap. More time than not the WHOLE truth is found in the harmonization of NUMEROUS passages. Any REAL student of scripture knows that....and they certainly do not place such a ridiculous demand on the text that you just have.

Why you replace the word of God with your rhetoric?

I have been asking you what Jn 17:3 means and you hide your head in sand.

I have shown EVIDENCES from scripture that God is triune in nature.
Id dont need to show you any single verse that says verbatim 'God is triune' and such a demand is clearly from one who clearly does not comprehend the concept of 'evidence', and certainly is not much of a Bible 'student'.

You haven't shown anything yet, pall.

So far you reject the word of God as well as your own scholars.

Not relevant. There are many things that werent made clear until Christ.
And even then it would not matter. Paul shows clearly that the Jews didnt really comprehend the OT scriptures because their minds were veiled.

Didn't you notice that Paul shows clearly that for him there is one God the Father?

Again, you clearly are oblivious to the concept of 'evidence'.
I gave you very plain evidence that our God IS in fact triune.

You have based your "view" upon few Trinitarian forgeries while rejected hundreds of fool proof texts stating to the contrary.

You need to tell who gave you authority to add the word Trinity to the word of God against His clear warning.

Its not my job to convince you....nor will I waste my time doing so. If you are blinded to the truth, that is on you to change your heart and accept it...or to remain blind to it.

I have my Lord Jesus Christ to do it for me, pall.

I don't need your crocked theology.

 

[-FoC-]

Are my questions irrelevant or you can’t respond without making God a liar?

Ive been very clear to spell out why they are irrelevant, chap.
Dont waste our time pretending as if someone is dodging your nonsense.

Why God had to receive power from another God?

Which is another pitiable error of your view.
We believe in ONE God, chap. Get that straight first, then try to comprehend the rest.

ONE God...three PERSONS...of which I have shown clear enough evidence for.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2672527&postcount=21

Why God has to become subject to another God?

"why' God the Son is subject to God the Father is for God to know and decide, chap.
Questioning it with your limited understanding doesnt negate the facts, however.

You need to respond to the legitimate questions instead of hiding your head in sand.

Please.
Most of your 'questions' have been entirely absurd...making unreasonable demands on the texts.

Of the few that werent a complete waste of time they are simply asking the same questions we all ask but have no real answer to.
If you think that ALL truth about God is in the scripture you are deluded. There are an infinite number of truths we will never know until that day when He returns.

 

[jerzy]

That is your foundational error. You think that pagans cannot have ANY truth and that is just a load of nonsense.
Pretty much EVERY false doctrine out there is dangerous for ONE reason...they are based on MANY TRUTHS and so deceive people because they DO have a lot of truth in them....but the error is what kills.

That pagans stumbled on to truth and contain truth does not negate that it IS truth.

That the RCC believes in the truth of our triune God DOES NOT negate that truth.

But it does say a lot that you have chosen to reject a truth of God simply because some pagan believes it too.

Let's come back to the scriptures.

Could you take a glance and say what you think about those verses?

Isa 11:1-3, 42:1+6, Eze 34:23-24, Mic 5:2, Mt 6:9, 11:25, Jn 6:23, 6:44-45, 6:65, 14:6, 14:10, 17:3, 20:17, 20:31, Ac 2:22, 2:36, 3:21, 10:36, 17:31, Ro 1:7, 1Cor 1:3, 8:6, 2Co 1:2, 5:18+21, Eph 1:3, 2:18, Ga 1:1, 1:3, Col 1:1-3, 1:12-13, Php 1:2, 1Th 1:1-3, 2Th 1:1-2, 1Ti 1:1-2, 2:5, 2Ti 1:1-2, Ti 1:4, Phm 1:3-4, Heb 1:1-2, Jam 1:1, 1Pe 1:2-3, 2Pe 1:2, 1Jn 1:2-3, 2Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1, Re 1:1.

 

[jerzy]

Agreed.
Something Thomas very clearly understood.

Pity that neither Jesus no the apostles mention it.

 

[-FoC-]

Why you replace the word of God with your rhetoric?

You mean THIS word of God?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Joh 1 KJV)

I have been asking you what Jn 17:3 means and you hide your head in sand.

...just slap me awake when you can actually provide an argument for yourself instead of these asinine questions.
Make an ASSERTION and we'll see what happens

You haven't shown anything yet, pall.

Again, not my problem if you cant read.

So far you reject the word of God as well as your own scholars.

Now youre just a liar.
Ive made it VERY clear that I derived MY views solely from scripture.
You know..the scriptures that Ive POSTED here for you to see?

Didn't you notice that Paul shows clearly that for him there is one God the Father?

One God....thats right...3 persons.

You have based your "view" upon few Trinitarian forgeries while rejected hundreds of fool proof texts stating to the contrary.

Again, youre nothing but a liar.
Ive made it VERY clear that I get my view right from the SCRIPTURES Ive posted here.
Try again.

You need to tell who gave you authority to add the word Trinity to the word of God against His clear warning.

Once more you are a liar.
Show me where *I* said the word 'trinity' was in the scriptures, heretic?
I havent.
'Trinity' is a WORD that conveys a CONCEPT of a triune God found in the scriptures. The word itself is not REQUIRED to be IN the texts. It is simply a WORD WE USE to express the CONCEPT in a discussion.
Too complex for you ?