All it takes is are posts like these to keep LA in the profoundly confused category of theology
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
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All it takes is are posts like these to keep LA in the profoundly confused category of theology
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I know exactly who He is. You can only see humanity. Thus there is no means for you to be partaking of the divine nature.
I most certainly do NOT deny He is a resurrected man, the first of many brethren.
You mean I deny He is ONLY a resurrected man, the first of many brethren. Of course I deny He's ONLY a resurrected man, the first of many brethren. He's the eternal divine Logos of God, just as He is ALSO a resurrected man, the first of many brethren.
No, but you have believed and spoken a lie about me.
That's absurd. No, I don't think the only words which God spoke, were about Jesus.
And "words spoken" is Rhema rather than Logos, though Logos is integral in that. It really comes down to that. Few Trinitarians have any clue what Rhema and Logos mean, so the majority of them are functional Tritheists. Unitarians universally don't know the meaning of Rhema or Logos, so they deny the divinity of our Lord to their own peril.
It is blasphemous to deny scripture; and to deny the Son as the eternal uncreated Logos of God, by which the one true and living God created all things.
You judge yourself with your own words and the reference to Pharisees and Saducees, since it is they who were looking for a man as Messiah for an earthly kingdom rather than Theanthropos as the Word made flesh.
Love abounds in epignosis knowledge (Philippians 1:9). It's those who deny the divinity of Christ who are loveless, faithless, and without knowledge.
No, I have spoken proof that I know the historical and authentic Christian faith, which includes the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and the Apostle Peter. This includes their direct disciples, including Polycarp; and they ALL affirmed the eternal uncreated divinity of our Lord.
Most Trinitarians are in peril from their functional Tritheism. All Unitarians are in peril from denying the divinity of Christ.
It's at least heterodox. It easily is heresy for many/most. And it's outright schism for some.
As I understand it, this is not a thread where the Triune view is to be debated. You Unis have plenty of threads to pollute without soiling this one. Please keep your participation focused in those threads, per the instruction of the Mods regarding this thread.
Cross Reference
New member
Had Jesus been in the power of his Godhead for to withdraw from suffering in the flesh, all flesh would have be lost to Satan. Ponder that when studying your Greek.
And added thought:
"The ultimate goal of knowledge is not information but intimacy. I want to know the one who knows me. Someday I will know as I am known (I Cor. 13
, but meanwhile, “As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God” (Ps. 42:1). Any search for knowledge that is satisfied with information falls short. If the heavens declare his glory then, even when I study quantum physics, microbiology or epigenetics, I am seeking to know my Father/Creator." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Fount Shults, "On Word Ministries"
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Please extensively define "Godhead" in this and any other uses.
Why do you presume the false dichotomy that divinity is not present when the humanity is suffering in the flesh?
I have, because I do so from the Greek foundation of meaning and application from the text.
The only reason for extreme Kenoticism (there are several degrees), is for modern Third Wave Charismaticists to insist Jesus did everything during the Incarnation as a man filled with the Holy Spirit, so we as Believers can do everything as a man filled with the Holy Spirit.
This denies the very ontology of the Gospel and the hypostatic translation of Believers into Christ. It's the most subtle and invasive anti-christ doctrine of this modern time.
And added thought:
"The ultimate goal of knowledge is not information but intimacy. I want to know the one who knows me. Someday I will know as I am known (I Cor. 13
. . . Fount Shults, "On Word Ministries"
Yeah, this guy has no idea what the distinctions are between epignosis knowledge, gnosis knowledge, and oida knowledge. Why quote some modern Charismaniac?
Added...
I went and looked at On Word Ministries. This guy is one of many promoting Theophostic Counseling and Prayer. No thanks. It's subtle Occultism trojan-horsed into the Christian faith. Eastern Mysticism meets Psychological Phenomenon, pretending to be spiritual truth. Fraudulent Modernism.
If salvation is dependent upon us rightly understanding what God is we are all lost.
Cross Reference
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Cross Reference
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I don't think that is my quote you are addressing.
Indeed it was. Post #4595
Cross Reference
New member
That doesn't mean it was me. Re-read the post.
Please understand CR, I'm not picking on you. I think most folks harbor some variation of this belief in salvation via proper doctrine. At least you aren't offering others a free trip to "hell" for any perceived doctrinal shortcomings unlike many others, past and present, have here.
Ah, you're right, it was Lon addressing your earlier offering. A thousand pardons.
Lon, that post was meant for you, evidently.
Cross Reference
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Lon
Well-known member
1) Global thinkers don't tend to jump the gun until they have the whole picture, simply because they want their response to be to the right thing. Leading questions tend to leave me without opinion for a long time. In our conversation, for example, I had to wait a few days before being able to grasp the depth of your meaning and concerns. No verse
A few introductions for thread and in addressing where I think you are coming from. Some of the background reading will help in conversation and allow others interested to catch up-to-speed if they wish to follow along in an informed manner:
The balance of theology is between the idea of Christ's kenosis and the hypostatic union of God and man. Here is a brief overview of the difficulties, but I'll elate a few of them here as well. The main point is that Christ didn't divest himself of divinity, but rather veiled it in taking on humanity. Thus, when Jesus said "no man knows the day or the hour but the Father in heaven" It was because He chose not to know and accepted that limitation in the flesh. "He knows now" would suggest the Lord Jesus is in His glorified state.
The main point of this discussion is focused on how much Jesus Christ tasted of humanity, voluntarily, as God. Paul says our attitude should be that of our Lord Jesus Christ, who took on the form of a servant, for our sakes. Such was all voluntary and self-restricting, not a 'losing' of those attributes. A father may put one hand behind his back when playing baseball to hit the ball, and would divest himself of most of his power in order to participate appropriately with his children. Similarly, Paul is calling the Philippians to have this same loving and sacrificial loving attitude, as displayed in Christ's loving sacrifice, not only in His death, but His subservient life as God living as a human servant.
There is a danger to Kenosis theology and is labelled a heresy, and that is the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ 'ceased' being God when He emptied Himself. Bible.org addresses this more fully here. The problem with such is that it believes Jesus was only human upon the earth and it also alludes to him being created/born as a separate being than the pre-existent God the Son (Son of God).
Background reading and an indepth study on Philippians 2 by John MacArthur
I never said Christ today is only a man but you deny he was born only a man.
I answered you in kind. You lied about me, so I could only gather from that you are lying.
I know the meanings, but remember that we also were in Christ before the foundation of the world, but you misunderstand how.
The Father created all things according to the Bible with Christ and us in mind.
Silly.
They were looking for the Messiah.
Well, I do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. The Christ is the divine portion of Jesus Christ.
and you judge others views by your beliefs rather than by Gods word.
Jesus is still a man born from the human race, but you claim he was somehow a conscious being before He was born. You learnt that from deceived people.
The divinity of Jesus is the Father Himself, so of course His divinity was uncreated.
You do not see the union of man with God. You deny the gospel record and prefer the writings of blind men.
So everyone is in peril except you, who claims to know Christ through your study of other humans books.
Then why do you not obey them?
I have answered you in the same way as you began to speak, so you have none to blame but yourself.
LA
Lon
Well-known member
CR and my dialogue is about this as well, if any of that conversation and links helps with discussion.
Lon
Well-known member
It does depend on revelation for faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God, thus it does depend on what we know of God. I think you are saying "salvation doesn't depend on what we yet don't know about God or possibly even what we may not have correctly."
I think if a thread was started with the topic: "Soteriology: what is salvation all about?" Would go many pages on TOL. General systematic theology topics have a good longevity.
Lon
Well-known member
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
What should one make of this statement in AMR's post?
I mean if one considers it in light of this scripture?
John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Then speaking of marveling, didn't Father reveal the faith he had dealt to this guy that Jesus marvelled over?
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
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