ECT Our triune God

[Arsenios]

Hypostasis underlies the ousia, determining quality of the physis, which is of the ousia.
Ousia has the physis.
Prosopon has the hypostasis, outwardly presenting it and all it underlies.

I would like to restate what you wrote here:

The hypostasis is the foundation of the ousia...

The prosopon possesses the hypostasis...

So the prosopon is in possession of the foundation of the ousia...

The ousia has a physis...

Put into English, it sure sounds like the face is in possession of the person thereby determining the being that has a nature...

That is too crackers for you to believe...

Would you please put what you wrote into some better English that my 9 year old can understand?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Nope.

Yup... 2000 years and counting...

Read their own copies of the original writing.

Nope -

Try 95% illiteracy, and hand scripted copies on hand made paper costing an equivalent in today's prices of upwards of $150,000 for a single Bible...

The Church kept the Bibles in print as they wore out, and passed them on from generation to generation... Monasteries hand crafted each page... So that you could have your very own mistranslated copy 1900 years or so later... Individuals could not afford Bibles... They were kept and revered in the Churches that read them daily to all, morning, noon, evening and night...

We are spoiled with cheap paper and throw-away print production...

Not to mention I-Phones and laptops...

OT scripture, the gospels, Revelation, as well as the epistles.

You all might have got yer hands on Acts first, but that is doubtful.

Sheer fantasy...

The Churches kept and faithfully copied the manuscripts...

The illiterate faithful had to HEAR the Word of God READ to them, and relied on the Icons to teach what they could not themselves read, nor afford if the could read... So precious is this Word...

You see God knows how to deliver the godly out of the temptation of yer Seditious, detestable immitation of our faith.

Your viperous spitting will only blow back in y'er own face...

Why such a mad on?

Was the Latins mean to you?

Arsenios

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yup... 2000 years and counting...



Nope -

Try 95% illiteracy, and hand scripted copies on hand made paper costing an equivalent in today's prices of upwards of $150,000 for a single Bible...

The Church kept the Bibles in print as they wore out, and passed them on from generation to generation... Monasteries hand crafted each page... So that you could have your very own mistranslated copy 1900 years or so later... Individuals could not afford Bibles... They were kept and revered in the Churches that read them daily to all, morning, noon, evening and night...

We are spoiled with cheap paper and throw-away print production...

Not to mention I-Phones and laptops...



Sheer fantasy...

The Churches kept and faithfully copied the manuscripts...

The illiterate faithful had to HEAR the Word of God READ to them, and relied on the Icons to teach what they could not themselves read, nor afford if the could read... So precious is this Word...



Your viperous spitting will only blow back in y'er own face...

Why such a mad on?

Was the Latins mean to you?

Arsenios

Not mad.

Not talkin' to the latins little feller.

I'm talkin to you.

Now pay attention here and learn.

Way back when, they had books.:think:

Check this out.

Acts 19:19 KJV

19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together , and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.


:wazzup: with all yer lying?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Arsenios,?

Yer posts are so absurd that I am beginning to wonder if my friend Pnuema is payin' yuh to play the devil's advocate.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I would like to restate what you wrote here:

The hypostasis is the foundation of the ousia...

The prosopon possesses the hypostasis...

So the prosopon is in possession of the foundation of the ousia...

The ousia has a physis...

Put into English, it sure sounds like the face is in possession of the person thereby determining the being that has a nature...

That is too crackers for you to believe...

Would you please put what you wrote into some better English that my 9 year old can understand?


Arsenios

You don't seem to recognize or comprehend that the hypostasis and prosopon comprise the person. There is no phaino without an appearance, so there MUST be a face or presence for the hypostasis to even be created phenomena. No prosopon... No phaino. A hypostasis MUST have its own proper prosopon.

The reason the prosopon "has" the hypostasis is because it locates the hypostasis in tangible existence; just as the prosopon of Christ locates us IN Him as we're hypostatically united and seated in heavenly places.

The body was formed first, then the breath of life breathed into the nostrils; and man became a living soul.

The foundational underlying reality is the hypostasis. But until spirit-body (ousia-soma) joining, man isn't a soul (hypostasis). The body without the spirit is dead. The Spirit giving breath (spirit) to the body IS soul life (nephesh and psyche).

There are no disembodied hypostases with physical life. We are either in our own prosopon or hypostatically translated into the prosopon of Christ by faith to be IN Him. His prosopon is our robe of righteousness until the final judgment, wherein we will be clothed upon with immortality and incorruptibility with our resurrected and glorified body.

This is putting on Christ and putting off the old man with sin in its members. His prosopon "having" our hypostasis is our elpis underlied by the substance of our pistis. This is our confidence and assurance of/for our blessed hope.

Grace is the influence of God's divine nature upon our own as we're partaking of that nature IN Christ. Our human nature accessing God's divine nature through the divine and human natures in Christ, into whom we are translated. We have access by faith into the grace wherein we stand.

It's not about whether one is saved and lost or once-saved-always-saved; it's about BEING saved by BEING in Christ. Being as a copula, not a verb. A state of being, outwardly demonstrated by works of faith according to a repentant heart and mind with a changed condition.

A "person" is NOT a hypostasis, but is a hypostasis and prosopon. There are no created breath-animated living hypostases without a prosopon. The prosopon is what shines and appears, which is phaino. For a "person" to be phenomenon and exist, the hypostasis must present its appearance/face/presence AS phaino.

No need for the historical false binary of whether the "person" is the hypostasis or the prosopon. The "person" requires BOTH; the inner and the outer man. And we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling) from the inner man (hypostasis) to the outer man (prosopon), demonstrating works of faith in true piety and asceticism with unfeigned love.

Grace changing the nature of our being as we live and walk in Spirit by the faith of the Son of God.

Yes, the prosopon "has" the hypostasis, because they both comprise the "person". And us putting on the prosopon of Christ is why we are in hypostatic union with Him. His prosopon "has" our hypostasis just as it "has" His own. We are betrothed, and one in all but flesh. Then our flesh will be cleansed at the judgment for us to be clothed upon with our wedding garment to be one flesh with our Bridegroom for all everlasting.

 

[jsjohnnt]

You don't seem to recognize or comprehend that the hypostasis and prosopon comprise the person. There is no phaino without an appearance, so there MUST be a face or presence for the hypostasis to even be created phenomena. No prosopon... No phaino. A hypostasis MUST have its own proper prosopon.

The reason the prosopon "has" the hypostasis is because it locates the hypostasis in tangible existence; just as the prosopon of Christ locates us IN Him as we're hypostatically united and seated in heavenly places.

The body was formed first, then the breath of life breathed into the nostrils; and man became a living soul.

The foundational underlying reality is the hypostasis. But until spirit-body (ousia-soma) joining, man isn't a soul (hypostasis). The body without the spirit is dead. The Spirit giving breath (spirit) to the body IS soul life (nephesh and psyche).

There are no disembodied hypostases with physical life. We are either in our own prosopon or hypostatically translated into the prosopon of Christ by faith to be IN Him. His prosopon is our robe of righteousness until the final judgment, wherein we will be clothed upon with immortality and incorruptibility with our resurrected and glorified body.

This is putting on Christ and putting off the old man with sin in its members. His prosopon "having" our hypostasis is our elpis underlied by the substance of our pistis. This is our confidence and assurance of/for our blessed hope.

Grace is the influence of God's divine nature upon our own as we're partaking of that nature IN Christ. Our human nature accessing God's divine nature through the divine and human natures in Christ, into whom we are translated. We have access by faith into the grace wherein we stand.

It's not about whether one is saved and lost or once-saved-always-saved; it's about BEING saved by BEING in Christ. Being as a copula, not a verb. A state of being, outwardly demonstrated by works of faith according to a repentant heart and mind with a changed condition.

A "person" is NOT a hypostasis, but is a hypostasis and prosopon. There are no created breath-animated living hypostases without a prosopon. The prosopon is what shines and appears, which is phaino. For a "person" to be phenomenon and exist, the hypostasis must present its appearance/face/presence AS phaino.

No need for the historical false binary of whether the "person" is the hypostasis or the prosopon. The "person" requires BOTH; the inner and the outer man. And we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling) from the inner man (hypostasis) to the outer man (prosopon), demonstrating works of faith in true piety and asceticism with unfeigned love.

Grace changing the nature of our being as we live and walk in Spirit by the faith of the Son of God.

Yes, the prosopon "has" the hypostasis, because they both comprise the "person". And us putting on the prosopon of Christ is why we are in hypostatic union with Him. His prosopon "has" our hypostasis just as it "has" His own. We are betrothed, and one in all but flesh. Then our flesh will be cleansed at the judgment for us to be clothed upon with our wedding garment to be one flesh with our Bridegroom for all everlasting.

Personally, I am not into the jargon embedded in your explanation, above (I have a best friend who prefers the [your] jargon, not to mention my own vocabulary of jargon). Having said that, for whatever it is worth, your explanation borders on the profound, as far as it goes. Wonderfully precise. I do not believe that the common, everyday, hardworking Christian, really gets what it means to be "in Christ," that we are saved by his faith, or that he (the Christ of God) is our very life source (for all life) in terms of an existential reality, but all this seems to be included and confirmed in your explanation. Anyway, you get a pos rep from me. Thanks for the words.

Update: I do agree with Arsenios, however, as a caution to your thinking: "It is a strange way to argue it, but true nonetheless... NO human would EVER argue Trinitarian Doctrine from human logic... It confounds such logic, and almost proves WHY God is apprehended by Faith in purity of heart instead of human logic... Human logic is its own discipline, and is needed for discipleship and for dealing with the world, but the ascent to God is only made when words and concepts and all of the rest of fallen human paraphernalia are set aside and we become turned toward God [pros ton Theon, from John 1] alone... The CALL of God TO us, otoh, comes when we are NOT so turned, and the turning is done FOR us BY God... And we then spend the rest of our lives learning, as fallen souls in a fallen creation, to renounce the world and RE-TURN toward God in an intimacy that is likened in Scripture to Marriage..."

In the end, God is not our intellectual reality. He is far to "other" for that. Personally, I believe in the Father and the Son, and a holy spirit that is common to them and inclusive of us. Such is my thinking as to what is often framed as "perichoresis." But, in terms of ministry, I do not spend much time sharing my assumptions with my fellows in the church. Still, I think PneumaPsucheSoma captures much of the biblical reality with Arsenios' words as a timely caveat.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Personally, I am not into the jargon embedded in your explanation, above (I have a best friend who prefers the [your] jargon, not to mention my own vocabulary of jargon). Having said that, for whatever it is worth, your explanation borders on the profound, as far as it goes. Wonderfully precise. I do not believe that the common, everyday, hardworking Christian, really gets what it means to be "in Christ," that we are saved by his faith, or that he (the Christ of God) is our very life source (for all life) in terms of an existential reality, but all this seems to be included and confirmed in your explanation. Anyway, you get a pos rep from me. Thanks for the words.

Update: I do agree with Arsenios, however, as a caution to your thinking: "It is a strange way to argue it, but true nonetheless... NO human would EVER argue Trinitarian Doctrine from human logic... It confounds such logic, and almost proves WHY God is apprehended by Faith in purity of heart instead of human logic... Human logic is its own discipline, and is needed for discipleship and for dealing with the world, but the ascent to God is only made when words and concepts and all of the rest of fallen human paraphernalia are set aside and we become turned toward God [pros ton Theon, from John 1] alone... The CALL of God TO us, otoh, comes when we are NOT so turned, and the turning is done FOR us BY God... And we then spend the rest of our lives learning, as fallen souls in a fallen creation, to renounce the world and RE-TURN toward God in an intimacy that is likened in Scripture to Marriage..."

In the end, God is not our intellectual reality. He is far to "other" for that. Personally, I believe in the Father and the Son, and a holy spirit that is common to them and inclusive of us. Such is my thinking as to what is often framed as "perichoresis." But, in terms of ministry, I do not spend much time sharing my assumptions with my fellows in the church. Still, I think PneumaPsucheSoma captures much of the biblical reality with Arsenios' words as a timely caveat.

I concur. That's why what I present is intuition from a mind renewed in the Spirit rather than intelligence from my own rational reasoning.

And the Holy Spirit IS the perichoresis for Father and Son, and for all Believers.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I concur. That's why what I present is intuition from a mind renewed in the Spirit rather than intelligence from my own rational reasoning.

Are you saying that you concur with the idea that yer natural intelligent reasoning is fallen?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Are you saying that you concur with the idea that yer natural intelligent reasoning is fallen?

It WAS. Now it has the foundation of spiritual life with my nous as an intuiting faculty for all intelligent reasoning. His Logos is now my logos, so my intellect is upon the intuitive foundation of a renewed (and being renewed) nous by the Spirit.

Oida. Intuitive knowledge of the Spirit.

 

[jsjohnnt]

I concur. That's why what I present is intuition from a mind renewed in the Spirit rather than intelligence from my own rational reasoning.

And the Holy Spirit IS the perichoresis for Father and Son, and for all Believers.

I can't give you another rep (I tried) , but it is good to know when there is agreement, here on TOL.

 

[jsjohnnt]

For sure. I believe that we have been shown it all however, in as much as it is possible to reveal the metaphysical reality we call the Trinity physically, we have been shown it all. We see in part because of our fallen bodies, as Paul indicates, writing “we” in his fallen body. What I'm suggesting is that even as our new bodies in glory, while we will see face-to-face, it will still not be apprehending the Creator as He is, metaphysically, because while our new bodies will be Spiritual, they will not be "spirit," but flesh and bone.​

Indeed, even in heaven in the presence of God, himself, we will be learning of his eternal essence/love/nature/power/grace for eternities upon eternities.​

 

[jsjohnnt]

Are you saying that you concur with the idea that yer natural intelligent reasoning is fallen?

Is there any aspect of man(kind) that is not effected by what folks call "the fall?" Me? I would answer, "No." Thoughts?"

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

It WAS. Now it has the foundation of spiritual life with my nous as an intuiting faculty for all intelligent reasoning. His Logos is now my logos, so my intellect is upon the intuitive foundation of a renewed (and being renewed) nous by the Spirit.

Oida. Intuitive knowledge of the Spirit.

Okay.

So I have a question.

If Adam was not deceived in the transgression, then he intelligently transgressed.

So where is the fall of his intellect?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Is there any aspect of man(kind) that is not effected by what folks call "the fall?" Me? I would answer, "No." Thoughts?"

The only thing that could be considered a fall would be falling from his status of not having ever sinned.

He was a sinner from jump street.

Sinful Hypostisis maybe?

Sinful temporality?

I'm a thinkin' Pnuema can translate my English into Greek.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What my renewed mind sees is this.

God has shown us the end from the beginning.

Adam and Eve were sinners in paradise that had not yet excercised their sinfulness.

Until the commandment came and was violated sin was not imputed to them.

So they were sinless sinners in paradise.

By one sinner, sin and death entered the world.


And by one non sinner, eternal life entered the world and sin is no longer imputed.

So that once we get to paradise we will be sinless sinners.

End from the beginning.


Sinful man's intellect conjured up the fall.

However God's wisdom and purpose turns it on it's head.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

We were made lower, that afterwards we should be crowned with glory and honor.

PSALM 8

1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies , that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger .

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained ;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Sin did not enter Adam.

It was already in his members.

It was dead and could do nothing until the commandment came.



5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid * . But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding * sinful.


14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I .

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do .

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more * I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[Arsenios]

The Trinity is not beyond metaphysics;
metaphysics is already “beyond,”
and the metaphysical concept "beyond"
is a metaphysical limit to language,
and to say "beyond beyond" is...
linguistically self-contradicting,
thus nullifying any meaning in a strict linguistic sense
(which does not mean its rhetorical meaning is nullified, understand).

Aristotle wrote of metaphysics, and did not know God...

Therefore...

God is INFINITELY BEYOND creaton...

And metaphysics is WITHIN creation...

One might say God acts metaphysically, but that simply means that He acts mysteriously in His creation...

Physical reality, and the reality of awareness of created things, which is a step beyond physical reality, is still ALL created, and God most certainly is not contained by metaphysics...

He instead infinitely encompasses all of it...

Which places Him outside language and the law of identity and non-contradiction etc...

Which makes Him utterly unknowable to man in His Essence...

He DID, however, energetically create creation, and in this we CAN know Him in part as He reveals Himself to us, and in this, He is known not in His Essence, but by revelation in His Creative Energies that come forth from His Essence...

And we do not know His Face, for He said in Exodus:

And He said:
"Thou shalt not not see My Face,
for there shall no man see My Face,
And live."

In this, the term Face is taken to mean Essence or Being...

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Okay.

So I have a question.

If Adam was not deceived in the transgression, then he intelligently transgressed.

So where is the fall of his intellect?

It's much more intricate than that. I do a regular series of 5 2-hour teachings that deal with every facet of this as Ponerology and Hamartiology.

Many can't receive it because they misunderstand why I vehemently reject Augustine's variant of Original Sin. It begins with the definitions of thanatos and hamartia singular/plural and articular/anarthrous, among other things.

It would be a stand-alone thread, and then some.

What my renewed mind sees is this.

God has shown us the end from the beginning.

Adam and Eve were sinners in paradise that had not yet excercised their sinfulness.

With hamartia coming from the base of ameros, this can't be. A- (no/not) and -meros (share/part) means hamartia (sin) is a missing share or part. It's a noun, and has both articular and anarthrous constructs for both singular and plural.

I could condense and summarize, but it would only lead to misunderstanding. But Adam and Eve were created and declared "very good" (tov tov). There was not missing share or part in them at creation.

Until the commandment came and was violated sin was not imputed to them.

This much is for sure.

So they were sinless sinners in paradise.

No, but I get where you're coming from to infer that.

By one sinner, sin and death entered the world.

Sin entered. Death passed upon all men. Sin didn't pass upon all men.

In Adam all DIED (not sinned). The sting of death is sin (not vice versa).

Until Augustinian Original Sin is ejected, Hamartiology can't be understood.

And by one non sinner, eternal life entered the world and sin is no longer imputed.

To Believers' translated hypostases... this is correct.

So that once we get to paradise we will be sinless sinners.

Believers are repentant, not sinners, though.

End from the beginning.

This refers more to God's foreknowledge and timelessness as He interfaces with time.

Sinful man's intellect conjured up the fall.

While I don't like the term "fall" at ALL; there was very real spiritual death with inevitable sin onset, the wages for which is physical death.

However God's wisdom and purpose turns it on it's head.

Man, THAT's fer shore, rat thar.

Sin did not enter Adam.

It was already in his members.

Sin is a "somethinglessness", not a something. It's a lack or deficiency. An inherent incapability. This is a lengthy exegetical teaching.

It was dead and could do nothing until the commandment came.

There's another perspective that reconciles everything.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid * . But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding * sinful.


14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I .

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do .

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more * I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

These are definitely key scriptures.

 

[Arsenios]

You don't seem to recognize or comprehend that the hypostasis and prosopon comprise the person. There is no phaino without an appearance, so there MUST be a face or presence for the hypostasis to even be created phenomena. No prosopon... No phaino. A hypostasis MUST have its own proper prosopon.

In English, you are saying there is no person without a face, so that IF God appears, He MUST have a face WITH WHICH to appear, for you say: "No face... No appearance..."

Yet face in Greek means mask, hiding the person behind it, and this is a fair description of most of humanity, for we all hide behind our faces to some degree or another, unless we are Saints, where our face IS the reality of the person...

But even taking you at face value (so to speak ), you simply cannot extrapolate this back to God and talk of Him as if He were a fallen flesh and blood sinner like us... Nor even a created Being, as Christ was, because God is UN-created, and there is not inference possible between creation and un-creation... We cannot analogize our way to the Nature/Physis of God from the nature/physis of man, and this is your argument so far here...

The reason the prosopon "has" the hypostasis is because it locates the hypostasis in tangible existence;

You are speaking only of creation, and even this in error, for the flesh itself LOCATES the person in tangible existence, and not MERELY the mask of the face, the prosopon...

just as the prosopon of Christ locates us IN Him as we're hypostatically united and seated in heavenly places.

It is His BODY of Which we are Members that has such a "location"... The Face is but one feature of that Body...

The body was formed first, then the breath of life breathed into the nostrils; and man became a living soul.

Yes... Almost... He became a living person HAVING a soul... The soul is the living interface of control by the person over his or her own body... It needs to be trained...

The foundational underlying reality is the hypostasis. But until spirit-body (ousia-soma) joining, man isn't a soul (hypostasis). The body without the spirit is dead. The Spirit giving breath (spirit) to the body IS soul life (nephesh and psyche).

And now your words are all over the place...

The Person is created by God in the womb in the joining of Spirit with flesh and the body begins to be formed there together with the soul... But I do not think this is what you are speaking of...

There are no disembodied hypostases with physical life. We are either in our own prosopon or hypostatically translated into the prosopon of Christ by faith to be IN Him. His prosopon is our robe of righteousness until the final judgment, wherein we will be clothed upon with immortality and incorruptibility with our resurrected and glorified body.

You are calling the body the face...

Yes, the prosopon "has" the hypostasis, because they both comprise the "person".

The face cannot have the person...

And us putting on the prosopon of Christ is why we are in hypostatic union with Him.

We put on the FACE of Christ?

His prosopon "has" our hypostasis just as it "has" His own.

Christ HAS a human face... That face does not HAVE Christ...


Arsenios