OK...
The language needs precision in usage...
I am glad
you changed what you had written...
You are like a horse that can't wait to gallop off at racing speed, and unwilling as a teacher to go through the steps it had itself to learn, first to straighten its legs, then to wobbily stand up, then to stagger to nurse from mothers teat, then to start to practicing to walk without falling down, then to take some real steps, then to maybe trot a little... But no - YOU want to forget the reins, forget the saddle blanket and the saddle, and the bridle, and the bit, not to mention the rider, and gallop off showing all how good you can gallop...
and I have asked you time and again, to slow down, to regard me as a 10 year old, to speak like a normal person to normal people, but you spit the bit, throw up your head and toss the reins, and go a galloping...
And THEN, you rotten child!
And THEN, you COMPLAIN when I sit here with an empty bridle and reins and bit and tell you why it is that I am not riding along with you...
This is too fun!
So HOLD them HOARSES, Partner!
They's a Wagon ter pull here!
Iff'n y'er doan' wanna pull'er, then OKEEFINE!
We will all ADMIRE you from afar...
As you gallop off into yoar sunset...
But I should add...
Riding partners deserve better...
But of c'hoarse...
youknewthat!
Arsenios
This is true in many ways, but predominantly because of this venue. I could type for days and still not present that which can be taught verbally in an hour or two with illustrations. Literary tradition is far inferior to oral tradition.
The volume and density and tedium of expression in written form is difficult as a tool to rid others of cognitive dissonance from dogma. So it's hard to toddle along incessantly, attempting to unravel while weaving.
We RECOGNIZE it quite well,
no matter how ingeniously CAMOFLAGED WITH
interstitialhautsyllabicmultisyllabillicisms...
(Say THAT 10 times fast!)
And we UNDERSTAND it as MODALISM...
I'm not representing Modalism in the least, though certain forms and perceptions of Modalism are as close as the Orthodox Trinity and preferable to a conceptual Trinity with multiple minds and wills assigned to the alleged hypostases.
A phenomenon of a person in a mode of action of that person...
Nope. Not even close. Modalism isn't multi-phenomenal. It's uni-phenomenal with multiple sequential manifestations.
You refuse to understand AND assign a misrepresentation. It's like everyone else calling the Trinity three gods. And it's condescending and dismissive from a position of inferior understanding.
I understand the Orthodox Trinity doctrine and all other permutations of Theology Proper. Obscure views many aren't even aware of or familiar with. Yet you want to caricature everything else to some limited projection you insist upon.
You don't recognize and understand that God and His Logos are both uncreated phenomenal and noumenal Self-conscious Self-existence. You simply deny it and then categorize whatever I say by another superimposed and caricatured criteria and concept.
God could appear to you and tell you He's not three hypostases (for NO ONE has encountered the alleged three "persons" simultaneously in plurality), and you'd argue with Him for tradition. That's just not kosher.
A baseball-phenom swings his bat and gets a hit...
So? There is UNcreated phenomenon (God) and created phenomenon (all else). You're arguing from the standpoint of denial that God shines and appears. Yet you still try to apply what I say within the framework of your perception. They're incompatible.
Later, the shower-phenom takes a shower...
Same guy...
Uses up all the hot water, ding-dang nab it all!
Truly funny, but I don't represent Modalism... FOR THE BAZILLIONTH TIME... obfuscator.
Yeah. UNcreated and created, not quantities of manifestations within the latter. Arrrrrgggggghhhhhh!!!!
And there are tons more after that...
So that was STRIKE ONE...
Nope.
And I have a runner on base...
Too much Abbott and Costello.
He got there on your BALK, remember?
Nope.
You made some other pitches, but I have to go on a job...
So TA!
Arsenios
If only you'd lay aside your caricatures and understand what I say for what it is instead of insisting on what you presume it to be and shallowly reckoning it to be Modalism.
The human person, his being and nature, his body and flesh, and his face, which is now but a fallen mask?
All these, you say...??
With the human soul and the human spirit?
You see, you left our person again...
Steeeeeeeeeeerrrraaiiiikkkee TWO!
I've told you over and over... In English, by definition, ALL persons are beings. You cannot insist on English and ignore that glaring fact. You don't get to demand English usage of terms and then ignore definitions.
IN ENGLISH, ALL PERSONS ARE BEINGS. IT'S A LINGUISTIC FACT. So there can't be a three-person being using English terms, for the alleged persons MUST be contrasted to the one being. You don't get to play both ends against the middle selectively.
And a Trinity with one mind and will STILL means multiple Logoi, jist as multiple minds and wills means multiple beings. Total unresolvable paradox, compounded by usage of English for "person/s".
You simply, my Dear, CANNOT omit reference to Person in ANY of these discussions...
As I said... Denumber the quantification of hypostases for an unquantifiable God and I'll gladly adopt the now-tainted term.
Irreligious of HOW trivial the western understanding of this word has become...
The Easterns are only better in referring to the hypostasis instead of the prosopon in ways, and by insisting the hypostasis underlies the ousia rather than the ousia "having" the hypostasis.
Hypostasis is irreducible. Period. Especially after being corrupted by multiplication.
BECAUSE...
It is THE word that ALL understand WITHOUT verbal definition...
Yeah... As an individuated sentient volitional BEING. THAT's the common understanding. NOBODY understands it, and can't define it.
We all also understand SELF as both more AND less that PERSON...
Nebulous.
Because there is often a conflict between person and self...
And IF you want to follow Christ, there had BETTER be a conflict...
And you had BETTER be on the right side of that conflict...
Nebulous.
Theology is pre-eminently practical within one's self, you see...
It is not a matter of you and the OTHERS...
Arsenios
Yep. And that's why there can't be a heart understanding and belief that God is multi-souled or multi-minded, or multi-Logoi-ed.
God is not three hypostases, whatever they're translated as in any language; but especially not English persons, which are automatically beings by definition.
But you'll ignore that for the infinitudinal time. Look in Webster's or Oxford. ALL persons qualify as beings by every possible definiton.
Because you are unwilling to use the term person???
A hypostasis is the underlying foundational substantial objective reality for subsistence as existence. Without a prosopon, it's not a person. Every hypostasis must have its own proper prosopon.
There is one transcendent uncreated hypostasis and prosopon, and that's UNcreated phenomenon. God shines and appears.
And instead you use hypostasis,
Vacate the unscriptural multiplication and I can agree. God is A person. God is NOT three persons.
which sounds more like a pathogenic diagnosis?
True. And irreducible as long as it's been hijacked and multiplied as a band-aid to compensate for error and omission.
Color me dumb and non-representational...
Not the first; unintentionally, but often maddeningly, the second. The forum venue is diabolically frustrating.
Then ALL persons MUST be beings. No selective double standards.
RIP 3-hypostases Trinity fallacy. English destroys your doctrine. Period.
We CAN import Greek understanding to English words...
Sorta. Fine. Hypostasis is person. Then there can't be three.
We CAN on rare occasions use a Greek word when there is NOT one in English...
The term NOUS is right at or on the edge of this...
That's for sure. Nobody seems to know what nous is, but that's true of many words, actually.
Person is not...
Western thought simply does not go deep enough with the term person...
We understand the PERSON as MASK, which is shallow, and which egoic self-understanding IS...
But we usually are living in our masks...
We are all existing AS the person hiding behind the mask...
So person is accessible to all...
Mask is not...
Prosopon/mask/face will fly over most...
Fake-face vs authentic face everyone gets...
I'm copiously and intuitively aware of all of this. The issue is the false multiplication of the hypostases for God.
How's your toes?
Arsenios
Covered with the steel-toed shodding of my feet with the Gospel that includes a Unihypostatic Trinity.
