ECT Our current covenant, that is, ministry

[northwye]

In history God has several times raised up a remnant, which is faithful to him, and has used that remnant to begin a new group of his people. The multitude, which has gone into false doctrines and false practices, and away from God, is cut off from God. That multitude, though, has tried to get back its position with God.

Christian Zionism is a movement to help that multitude of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20, who rejected Christ, to get back their standing which was lost.

At the great flood of Noah, God cut off the large multitude of people and began again with a small remnant, Noah, Noah's wife, his three sons and their wives. "And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:" Genesis 8: 18

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." I Peter 3: 20

Then in I Kings 19 during the time of the apostasy of Ahab and Jezebel, God told Elijah in I Kings 19: 18, "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." God had preserved a remnant even in the time of the apostasy of Ahab and Jezebel.

In Romans 11: 4, as part of his statement on a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepting Christ, and becoming members of the elect by grace, Paul quotes I Kings 19: 18. Paul says that in the remnant, God did not cast away all his people. But as Romans 11: 17-20 says, God did not cut off all of Old Covenant Israel but cut off only those who were in unbelief, who rejected Christ.

In Romans 11: 23-24 those of the physical bloodline who come to accept Christ - they do not continue in unbelief - will be grafted in. But they are grafted in because of their faith, not because of their DNA.

Again in the Babylonian captivity of seventy years as judgment for falling away into false doctrines and practices the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was left in false doctrines and in captivity while a remnant was sent back to Jerusalem under Zerubbabel, Jeshua and Ezra to began Old Covenant Israel anew.

When Christ appeared in human flesh and went to the Cross, God fulfilled the prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 to turn Jerusalem (Israel) upside down and to make Israel again "another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." And in Acts 10 God used Peter to bring the Gospel to Cornelius, a non-Jew, and his people, beginning the fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea 2: 23 to make a people who were not before the people of God, the people of God. In other words, non-Jews were to be brought in to Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

This cutting off of the multitude who were following the false doctrines as leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16: 6, Luke 12: 1), and beginning a new Israel in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 was a major transformation of Israel from the Old Covenant which operated in the physical to a New Covenant which operated in the spiritual. That which was physical under the Old Covenant - physical bloodline from Abraham, physical circumcision, a physical temple building, physical animal sacrifice, etc - was all done away with as shadows (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 17). That which is in the spiritual - in Christ Jesus - became the substance.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2: 16-17

 

[Interplanner]

The principle of the remnant can be forgotten when Sue Patterson's ideas on how people who are not of the physical bloodline from Abraham fit into the tribes of Israel in the era of the New Covenant becomes the focus and topic of argument.

There are statements in scripture on the qualifications for being in the remnant. "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephhaniah 3: 13

"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14: 5 Guile is from δολος, Strong's Greek: 1388, dolos, -- "a bait, fig. craft, deceit." The 144,000 are said to be without deception. And if we now live close to the last days Christ spoke about in John 6 we know that we now live in a time of great deception. Yet the 144,000 as a remnant is said not to be deceptive.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14: 4

The literalists insist that the 144,000, who for them are all of the Old Covenant Israel tribes, though Paul implies old Covenant Israel no longer exists in the New Covenant, but the elect are selected by their faith, are nevertheless all of the physical bloodline.

The same literalism insists that by virgins John means the 144,000 have never had sex, and since the verse says they are not defiled with women. then all the 144,000 must be men with no women among that group. But no, this is metaphoric. You could look at Revelation 17: 1-6, for another metaphoric use of women in prophecy.

The metaphoric meaning then of Revelation 14: 4 is that a qualification of being in the remnant, the 144,000, is not be be "defiled" by religion, as it is seen in Revelation 17: 1-6. The 144,000 are not in the false doctrines taught in churches, though most likely many of them were at one time.

The Zeph 3 line is used by Jesus about 'an Israelite indeed' in Jn 1:47, though not even Metzger's Greek list has it. The expression used was 'alethos Israelites.'

 

[Lazy afternoon]

"Me thinks the 144000 are the living overcomers before the resurrection during the 3.5 years."

What 3,5 years? Be careful about using the "letter" of scripture, especially in prophecy involving time.

Ok you can forget He said it, but I will not--

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


Jas 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
Jas 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Sue thought that the second appearing of Christ involves his appearing within his remnant before he appears as predicted in I Corinthians 15.

She is right.

LA

 

[northwye]

"Sue thought that the second appearing of Christ involves his appearing within his remnant before he appears as predicted in I Corinthians 15.
She is right."

Many of the people who have come out of false doctrines and out of the churches have a love of the truth, following II Thessalonians 2: 10-12. But they, or we, do not yet have the spiritual power - called anointing by the church people - that the 144,00 - the remnant - is likely to have. Some or maybe just a very few in that remnant at a point in time may also be given the power to heal the sick and raise the dead, though there is nothing on this in Revelation 14.

"And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." Isaiah 33: 24

Will the members of the remnant be healthy and not get sick and will their sins be forgiven so that they become righteous in their love of the Truth and in following Christ wherever he leads them?

 

[northwye]

John 1: 47 does say "ιδε αληθως ισραηλιτ" "εν ω δολος ουκ εστιν" of Nathanael.

William Tyndale for John 1: 47 has "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, "Behold a right Israelite, in whom is no guile."

Did Christ say Nathanael was a true Israelite or a truthful Israelite. following Zephaniah 3: 13.

 

[Danoh]

"Sue thought that the second appearing of Christ involves his appearing within his remnant before he appears as predicted in I Corinthians 15.
She is right."

Many of the people who have come out of false doctrines and out of the churches have a love of the truth, following II Thessalonians 2: 10-12. But they, or we, do not yet have the spiritual power - called anointing by the church people - that the 144,00 - the remnant - is likely to have. Some or maybe just a very few in that remnant at a point in time may also be given the power to heal the sick and raise the dead, though there is nothing on this in Revelation 14.

"And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity." Isaiah 33: 24

Will the members of the remnant be healthy and not get sick and will their sins be forgiven so that they become righteous in their love of the Truth and in following Christ wherever he leads them?

Why must your kind ever insist on relying on your "well maybe this, or perhaps that?"

Why is the Scripture ever secondary your said unreliable approach?

Is it that your kind do not really believe in the truth of...

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Or in the truth of...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You see this passage that follows?

Isaiah 33:24 And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

That is after this, in the very next chapter...

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

You see this following passage...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is this...

Matthew 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

And Isaiah had described both the Lord's First Advent (noted herein above) as a foretaste of Israel's restoration back to being God's people one day, and His Second Advent to Israel (noted herein below) and healings are a part of both of those Advents.

Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 29:2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 29:3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 29:4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. 29:5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire. 29:7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision. 29:8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought. 29:22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

His First Advent had been a foretaste of all that...

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

What had been Israel's response at His First Advent?

And what had been His reply?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Consider the following exchange after His resurrection...

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

After He enters into His glory, He heals Israel...

When will that be?

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Or as He later put the sense of all that through Peter's words...

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Rom. 5:8

Acts 17:11,12

 

[Interplanner]

John 1: 47 does say "ιδε αληθως ισραηλιτ" "εν ω δολος ουκ εστιν" of Nathanael.

William Tyndale for John 1: 47 has "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, "Behold a right Israelite, in whom is no guile."

Did Christ say Nathanael was a true Israelite or a truthful Israelite. following Zephaniah 3: 13.

What would the difference be? Would the first distinguish from false ones who were there on the merits of their race (see Jn 1:13) while the 2nd would just be about honesty?