"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[meshak]

I had not considered that, but I do know that Matthew 7:12 fulfils the entire law.

I am only pointing out your dismissal of Jesus' commands.

that's why you should not say you have no sin. Because you don't know what Jesus commands.

Jesus explained what He teaches in great detail in sermon on the mount.

Jesus expects for us to aim for perfection.

We are not sinless unless we are perfect. Only Jesus is perfect.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I KNOW. You think you know, but aren't sure? That's the
difference between you and I.

You are claiming that you have already endured until the end?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your "works" won't earn you, eternal life. But, keep trying if you wish.

It is a good thing that it is my "faith" that pleases God enough that He chooses to give me eternal life.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Grow up.

That is the correct translation of this verse:

Matthew 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

1 John 3:6 states they never knew him, like the Lord will say to them on the last day; but you are arguing they knew him for a bit.

They knew for a while before turning away.

2 Peter 2:20-22 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.​

Matthew 13:20-22 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

How strong is God if he can't keep you from sinning occasionally?

If you think it is God's job to keep you from sinning, then you don't know God at all.

 

[Shasta]

It's clear that is NOT what I'm claiming.

When I say I don't covet ever it means I really don't covet.

Do you still covet ever? Yes or no?



How can you ignore that he states a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, even after I make the point?



The prodigal son returns after he is chastened. He loved you while you were dead in your sins. You imagine the chastening started only when you reduced your sinning to "occasionally."

Okay ty for clearing that up. There are so many beliefs around that I needed to know.

My answer is that you cannot always take one passage as an absolute. You have to consult the balance of scripture to establish any doctrine. While it is clear Jesus was saying the fruit of a redeemed person's life will be good I do not think it goes as far as to say that every redeemed person is perfect.

Although we can walk above sin the whole counsel of God's word does not support practical sinless perfectionism or Wesley's doctrine of "entire sanctification." Paul and Barnabas, both godly men, got into a heated argument over whether Mark should work with them after deserting them on the field. Was Paul being unforgiving? Was Barnabas showing favoritism to his nephew? We do not know their motives but this was not what you call a godly exchange.

Peter even after being filled with the Spirit ended up compromising on what the Lord has shown him about the Gentiles being clean by acting as if they were unclean. Paul rebuked him for his hypocrisy (and hypocrisy IS a sin). Was Peter demonstrating sinlessness in that situation? I think not. He needed correction and Paul did it publicly for the benefit of the whole Church.

Paul was not talking to unbelievers when he said: Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters (1 Corinthians 6:9)

First of all he was writing to an assembly of believers. This is underscored when he adds that they were committing these sins against fellow brothers and sisters. We assume he did not mean that they were genetically related so they must have been brothers and sisters in the Lord. The Lord does not immediately abandon us if we do something wrong. He is patient and usually gives people a certain space of time to repent (Revelation 2:21). Rarely does He judge anyone instantaneously.

Sin is not just avoiding doing certain things. We can only avoid sinning to the extent that we are conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. He is the template for how we are supposed to be. Sin is not just about NOT doing wrong things. It is about our motives and thoughts. A life pleasing to God is centered on loving Him with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves.

The scripture I cited in another post shows that conformity into His image is the result of a process of progressive change. It does not happen in an instant as soon as we believe in Him (2 Corinthians 3:18). We can continue to be close to him before the work is completed because we are continually being cleansed by His blood.

Paul denied that he had attained perfection.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12)

Part of the verse speaks of the rewards he hopes to attain the main part of which is eternal life in the world to come. However, the comment I highlighted is speaking of personal perfection which he had not attained. Like us Paul was a work in progress as he pressed on towards the mark

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your false doctrine is that occasionally believers bear bad fruit.

The Lord said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

Yet He also said that Christians could fall (sin) and need to repent.

Revelation 2:5 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.​

That is why we are warned to beware.

2 Peter 3:17 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

If we are righteous, we will not remain in the fallen state, but will repent and get back up again every time we fall (sin).

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Consider that what you have done is (cherry) pick from those two word definition lists the "definition" you assumed best fits what you have come to believe...

That is all anyone can do, but the definitions I assume best fit are the ones that match the testimony of the majority of scripture.

It is obvious you are reading things into the passages, together with combining passages you think are saying the same thing

The passages need to be read according to the meaning intended by the writers for the understanding intended by the audience the writers wrote to in the context of the belief systems in place during the time of the writing.

Most Christians use the type of reading taught to them in school where they just assume that the words they see in the Bible have the meanings used by modern speakers of American English instead of the meanings understood by the writers and the readers of the time when the Bible was written.

They are so stuck in Basic Reading 101 Principles, that they have no clue how to use Intermediate Reading 201 Principles or Advanced Reading 301 Principles.

by the time someone comes along from without and points this out, they have built up so much based on that error that, there is not much hope of helping them get back on track.

Yes, most efforts to point out the errors taught to most Christians fall on deaf ears.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If any of you occassional sinners want to argue wilful versus intentional sins, please try and understand that there are no laws against unintentional acts. Those laws were abrogated. See Col 2:14. I cannot break non-existent laws, nor can I break all the imaginary laws in your heads that your parents and false churches put upon you. However, if I murder, steal, commit adultery, worship other Gods, I wouldn't be a believer no matter what I claim.

Your poor understanding of Colossians 2:14 helps you believe that God abolished His Law, when that is not the case at all.

All of God's Laws and Covenants are cumulative, and the only way out of one Law or Covenant is through a later one that provides a way out of the previous one.

This principle is laid out in scripture through the examples of the rules of the laws of the Medes and Persians described in Daniel and Esther.

 

[Shasta]

Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
How strong is God if he can't keep you from sinning occasionally?

If you think it is God's job to keep you from sinning, then you don't know God at all.

The idea that keeping a person from sin is the result of an exercise of Divine power sounds very much like the Calvinistic concept of irresistible grace only that it is directed not towards bringing a person to Christ but keeping them from sinning.

I must admit this is quite a novel concept to me and I do not know how it would work. If it is true, and a believer willfully chooses to sin would he not then be justified in blaming God for not exerting enough strength to stop him?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Define "lapsing" into sin after being saved, and how many and what kind of sins lead to loss of salvation.

So define exactly what "lapsing into sin" means, and when that "lapse" results in loss of salvation. (how many times one sins after salvation and what sins, any or all)

That is the thinking of the Pharisees.

They were constantly trying to find the limit of what they could get away with and still be considered righteous.

You should put off the mind of the Pharisee and put on the mind of Christ.

Don't seek to find out what you could get away with, seek the things that are from above.

Philippians 4:8 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

 

[Shasta]

Yet He also said that Christians could fall (sin) and need to repent.

Revelation 2:5 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.​

That is why we are warned to beware.

2 Peter 3:17 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

If we are righteous, we will not remain in the fallen state, but will repent and get back up again every time we fall (sin).

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

All excellent points. I think it is also worth noting for MAD proponents that Revelation was written in the last decade of the First Century after the Church had become predominately Gentile. Also the Seven Churches he wrote to were part of Paul's mission field. The Churches there had been mostly Gentile for a very long time. So there is no chance that this was some remnant of a "Jewish Gospel" which, in fact, never existed.

The sins in those Churches were exposed even though God is not supposed to impute any sin to believers and they were told to repent something else that hardly sounds like "Paul's Gospel of Grace." Of course we have to remember that it was Jesus saying these things and His gospel (according to MAD) was meant for another dispensation.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Some symptoms of a lying spirit speaking--

They never sin.

They say the Holy Spirit is in them by first birth, or just by believing.

They hate Acts 2:38 doctrine and people of gifts.

They are never wrong and when proven wrong they say that never believed such in the first place.

They call the righteous to be demonic.

LA

 

[turbosixx]

You're just another cherry-picking Bible chopper (CPBC). You and a few others here like to CUT Paul's thought where YOU like it. Read the WHOLE thought and get it right.

1Co 6:9-11 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
​

We are NOT justified in OURSELVES, no matter HOW righteous we are. That's because we HAVE NO RIGHTEOUSNESS before God.

I’m trying to understand OSAS. You point out the verse that says their sanctified and justified, which I very much agree with. What I’m trying to fit into OSAS is the verses leading up to this. If what determines if we are saved or not is if we’re a believer, then why does Paul ask believers “do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven"? Why does he tell them, Do not be deceived then give them a list of sinners who will not inherit? All this after he tells them they wrong and defraud their brethren to their shame.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Some symptoms of a lying spirit speaking--

They never sin.

They say the Holy Spirit is in them by first birth, or just by believing.

They hate Acts 2:38 doctrine and people of gifts.

They are never wrong and when proven wrong they say that never believed such in the first place.

They call the righteous to be demonic.

LA

One who knows very little yet, pretends to know much, is YOU.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

YOU say we are to obey Jesus. JESUS says to be perfect. Then you attack others WHO OBEY AND those who acknowledge that they are PERFECT, just AS JESUS SAYS AND COMMANDS!

She can's help it, she's extremely ignorant.

 

[meshak]

I’m trying to understand OSAS.

Are you serious with this comment?

Once saved always saved?

 

[Puppet]

I’m trying to understand OSAS. You point out the verse that says their sanctified and justified, which I very much agree with. What I’m trying to fit into OSAS is the verses leading up to this. If what determines if we are saved or not is if we’re a believer, then why does Paul ask believers “do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven"? Why does he tell them, Do not be deceived then give them a list of sinners who will not inherit? All this after he tells them they wrong and defraud their brethren to their shame.

OSAS is the same as elects

 

[meshak]

OSAS is the same as elects

You got that right.

That's why Calvinists and the rest of the churches who follow OSAS are the same kind.

And they are fighting against each other.

what a circus.