"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

Shasta

Well-known member
How can one be a Christian without being a believer?


I see fakers all the time.



Being removed from the local churches fellowship, isnt the same thing as being removed from the body of Christ.

Paul didn't kick anyone out of the body of Christ.

There are false Christians (like Simon Magus)
There are lapsed Christians who have fallen back into sin.
There are apostates who having been born again subsequently deny the faith or go into doctrinal heresy (as Jude talks about)

Paul had the church judge and dis-fellowship someone who was apparently a believer but who was in sin which was causing deception to spread.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
I have met people like that as well.

Some have been fortunate to have learned repentance and after they repented they found out that they have not been completely abandoned.

Others died in their sins and will never enter the kingdom of God.

How are they to find their way home if people tell them God is not looking at what they do? A friend of ours regularly fornicated for years and rationalized it by saying "God wanted her to be happy." She believed that, at any rate, all her sins past present and future were forgiven so she had no fear of God.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
There are false Christians (like Simon Magus)
There are lapsed Christians who have fallen back into sin.
There are apostates who having been born again subsequently deny the faith or go into doctrinal heresy (as Jude talks about)

Paul had the church judge and dis-fellowship someone who was apparently a believer but who was in sin which was causing deception to spread.

But you and the people in your church don't have to worry about any of that. :chuckle:
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
I have met people like that as well.

Some have been fortunate to have learned repentance and after they repented they found out that they have not been completely abandoned.

Others died in their sins and will never enter the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 1:13–14 You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory”

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jude 24-25
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless

Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I have met people like that as well.

Some have been fortunate to have learned repentance and after they repented they found out that they have not been completely abandoned.

Others died in their sins and will never enter the kingdom of God.

Gosh, it must be nice to be able to see into the heart of men.

1 Samuel 16:7b "for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
How are they to find their way home if people tell them God is not looking at what they do? A friend of ours regularly fornicated for years and rationalized it by saying "God wanted her to be happy." She believed that, at any rate, all her sins past present and future were forgiven so she had no fear of God.

Wow, I had a neighbor who played the lottery. She would take a 5 dollar bill every single week and lay it down on the store's counter because she loved money so much. What is wrong with these people? :nono:
 

Shasta

Well-known member
But you and the people in your church don't have to worry about any of that. :chuckle:

Our Pastor has asked people to leave before for living immoral lives and promoting it (secretly of course). We are a needy people in the sense that many of us have had deep issues like drugs. Whenever you go to an AA meeting you see both love and truth. Whatever is said is listened to with mercy but you cannot get away with making excuses and lying. I think the Body of Christ should have the same mixture of "speaking the truth in love."

You are still stereotyping us as "holier than thou" based, I suppose, on the formula that "anyone that does not believe in antinomian free grace is a legalist." Well, it is not always so neat. As I have said, a lot of my collegues are Baptists and believe in OSAS. One of them is not just a friend but a close friend and he is one of the kindest most godly men I know. We have fellowship.

Likewise I have known people in the non-OSAS camp who are loving and humble. Two of our elders are in that category. Both were once drug addicts who lived on the street. No one who knows them would ever accuse them of being Pharisees...but if you talk to them they will speak the truth in love.

What we believe is not in earning salvation through works. We do not believe in a locked-in version of salvation either. We have freewill before and after salvation
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Wow, I had a neighbor who played the lottery. She would take a 5 dollar bill every single week and lay it down on the store's counter because she loved money so much. What is wrong with these people? :nono:

This is a straw man you constructed and stuffed. You must not have read all the things I have said if you think that is what I believe.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Gosh, it must be nice to be able to see into the heart of men.

1 Samuel 16:7b "for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."​

It is more a matter of them revealing the abundance of what is in their heart by what they say.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
…8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
1 Corinthians 6:8-9

He is saying here that Christians can sin? We are dead to sin only because we continue to surrender not because we surrendered one time at salvation. The confusion comes from the fact that neither MAD nor and OSAS do not comport with sound exegesis or an historical understanding of the Biblical teaching.

No, he is not saying Christians can sin because sin is transgression of the law and we are not under the law. Romans 6:14 You just read your understanding into that verse. Just as you do when Paul speaks of our being dead to sin. You can only reckon yourself to be dead to sin if you have been crucified with Christ and are ALIVE unto God through our Lord and Saviour. Romans 6:11 If not, then you are forced to think you must "continue to surrender".

We WERE slaves to sin, but we have obeyed (not the commandments or any rules and regulations) but "that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Paul is speaking of the Gospel of Salvation and the obedience of Faith. That believing that makes us new creatures created IN CHRIST JESUS.


Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.


BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN.....nothing there about our attempts to stop sinning. It's all about what the Lord accomplished on the cross for all who believe.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

We live by His faith....not by our efforts to be righteous.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It is more a matter of them revealing the abundance of what is in their heart by what they say.

Oh, like you folks who say YOU must "continue" doing something instead of trusting in the Lord who actually performs the good work in us? :chew:

I have to admit that my confidence is in HIM. I know He will conform me into His image....and I trust Him to do just that.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You think you are saved because of a time that you called Jesus your Lord.

Jesus said merely saying that He is Lord is not good enough for Him.
He wants you to do more than just call Him Lord.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

And don't claim that Paul didn't preach about the kingdom.

Acts 28:23
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.​


Paul said you can't work your way into the kingdom of God, but he also clearly said that you can work your way out of the kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​


Those types of sinners mentioned in Galatians are the unsaved
to begin with. Galatians isn't speaking of Believers who have been
sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
This is a straw man you constructed and stuffed. You must not have read all the things I have said if you think that is what I believe.

Actually, you spoke of fornication and I spoke of greed. Which one is alright? Which will make a person lose his salvation? Will a bank robbery but not taking a candy bar from the check out stand? You gotta have some kind of answer, don't you?
 

Shasta

Well-known member
=Angel4Truth;4466417]Ephesians 1:13–14 You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory”

In our language and culture a "seal" implies that something is protected and permanant. In the ancient times it was not that way. TO understand the metaphors used in the Word we have to understand what THEY meant to convey. In the First Century a seal was a blob of hot wax which was placed on a legal document and impressed with a stamp or signet ring with the symbol of a person in authority. They
were usually affixed to legal documents to guarantee their authenticity. They might be used in any contract, a certificate of adoption or a deed to an inheritance. Once the person had it in their possession the sealed document provided them with the assurance that whatever is stated in the document was theirs.

Seals were not iron padlocks or welds. They were made of wax which could be easily broken...but not by anyone. Only the owner of the document had the legal right to break the seal. Anyone else who tried to steal or tamper with the document would suffer the consequences. In the Revelation the Lamb broke the seals on the scrolls because he had legal ownership of them and had the right to do so.

Those were scrolls whose contents were sealed. When it came to legal documents the possessor who had access could break the seal if they chose to but if they did the document would be rendered invalid and non-binding. Thus, though it had been ratified by an authority it was important that the possessor took care of it.

The meaning of the seal is the presence of the Holy Spirit inside us. Is our relationship with the Holy Spirit something we have to cultivate or does nothing we do affect it? Although a lot of people quote Ephesians to argue that our relationship with God is unconditional few bother to read this scripture in the same book:

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.Eph 4:30

According to the Word the Spirit can be grieved, resisted, quenched and rebelled against - which is why Hebrews says Israel lost their inheritance. That too was used symbolically represent New Covenant believers and their inheritance.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God did not revoke His call to a lot of people that He ended up judging. He did not rescind his call to King Saul but He tore the kingdom from his hands.

Jude 24-25
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless

Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Jude is a book that gives examples for us of men who started out knowing God, or having a divine calling, ministry or a supernatural gift. While these were never revoked God destroyed these men for pursuing various lusts instead of God and for apostasizing from the faith.

God will keep us if we want to be kept but He is not going to keep us irresistibly any more than He saved us irresistibly.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
The problem is they think everyone who claims to be saved is actually saved. I have a nephew that got saved every time he went to prison. Must have been five times at least. :chew:

I don't think everyone who says they are saved are saved.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
In our language and culture a "seal" implies that something is protected and permanant. In the ancient times it was not that way. TO understand the metaphors used in the Word we have to understand what THEY meant to convey. In the First Century a seal was a blob of hot wax which was placed on a legal document and impressed with a stamp or signet ring with the symbol of a person in authority. They
were usually affixed to legal documents to guarantee their authenticity. They might be used in any contract, a certificate of adoption or a deed to an inheritance. Once the person had it in their possession the sealed document provided them with the assurance that whatever is stated in the document was theirs.

The verse *I* quoted, says guarantee, do you know what a guarantee is?





30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.Eph 4:30
Why does it not say don't lose the Holy Spirit there? Thats what it would say if your words were correct, we grieve Him when we act in out in our flesh.

Nothing about loss, sorry.

According to the Word the Spirit can be grieved, resisted, quenched and rebelled against - which is why Hebrews says Israel lost their inheritance. That too was used symbolically represent New Covenant believers and their inheritance.

Nice one, but you are using the OT theocracy which doesnt apply to Christianity, see what you have to do to try to get around whats clearly written to Christians? Israels warnings arent written to believers.

God did not revoke His call to a lot of people that He ended up judging. He did not rescind his call to King Saul but He tore the kingdom from his hands.
Which has nothing to do with Christianity.

Jude is a book that gives examples for us of men who started out knowing God, or having a divine calling, ministry or a supernatural gift. While these were never revoked God destroyed these men for pursuing various lusts instead of God and for apostasizing from the faith.

God will keep us if we want to be kept but He is not going to keep us irresistibly any more than He saved us irresistibly.

What i quoted there, says He keeps it (not us), do you think He is lying?
 
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