Or they could just have hung out at TOL for a bit...

The Barbarian

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Banned
Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory
Hugo Mercier
Dan Sperber

Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Vol. 34, No. 2, pp. 57-74, 2011

Abstract:
Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation. A wide range of evidence in the psychology of reasoning and decision making can be reinterpreted and better explained in the light of this hypothesis. Poor performance in standard reasoning tasks is explained by the lack of argumentative context. When the same problems are placed in a proper argumentative setting, people turn out to be skilled arguers. Skilled arguers, however, are not after the truth but after arguments supporting their views. This explains the notorious confirmation bias. This bias is apparent not only when people are actually arguing but also when they are reasoning proactively from the perspective of having to defend their opinions. Reasoning so motivated can distort evaluations and attitudes and allow erroneous beliefs to persist. Proactively used reasoning also favors decisions that are easy to justify but not necessarily better. In all these instances traditionally described as failures or flaws, reasoning does exactly what can be expected of an argumentative device: Look for arguments that support a given conclusion, and, ceteris paribus, favor conclusions for which arguments can be found.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Reason is just a tool. It can be used simply to win a debate, it can be used to satisfy desires, it can be used to solve problems, it can be used to seek truth, etc.

There is no one purpose for reason; how it is used is decided by its wielder.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
So, when God said this:

Isaiah 1:18
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.​

He was starting an argument?
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Why Do Humans Reason?

Because we are made in the image of God, and God is logic.

1In the beginning was the Word (logic), and the Word(logic) was with God, and the Word(logic) was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God
 

Caledvwlch

New member
Because we are made in the image of God, and God is logic.

1In the beginning was the Word (logic), and the Word(logic) was with God, and the Word(logic) was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God

I don't think logos literally means "logic." I think it means what the translations usually say, which is "word." Logic is just derived from logos. The word for "lord" is kurios, but we don't usually ascribe the trait of curiosity to lordliness in general or The Lord in particular. Excuse my inability to actually use Greek fonts in a post.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man:

and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

JESUS Formed mankind and put some of HIS Spirit in ADAM.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?

But we have the mind of Christ.
 

Caledvwlch

New member
I don't think logos literally means "logic." I think it means what the translations usually say, which is "word." Logic is just derived from logos. The word for "lord" is kurios, but we don't usually ascribe the trait of curiosity to lordliness in general or The Lord in particular. Excuse my inability to actually use Greek fonts in a post.

Curious doesn't come from Greek. :doh:
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I don't think logos literally means "logic."

So what. Logos is literally to reason and plan. The best thing you could ever do is stop being yourself. Well, first you should get saved. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Then the stupid genes will no longer have control of you.
 

Caledvwlch

New member
So what. Logos is literally to reason and plan. The best thing you could ever do is stop being yourself. Well, first you should get saved. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Then the stupid genes will no longer have control of you.

I disagree about logos. It literally means "word," and is used basically to denote communication, not necessarily reason. But I shall take the rest as a kind word from you and say thanks. :e4e:
 

The Barbarian

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Banned
I don't think logos literally means "logic." I think it means what the translations usually say, which is "word." Logic is just derived from logos. The word for "lord" is kurios, but we don't usually ascribe the trait of curiosity to lordliness in general or The Lord in particular. Excuse my inability to actually use Greek fonts in a post.

It's λογος, in Greek. And there were a lot of things it meant in koine Greek.

"Word", "to reason", "premise", were all uses. No "plan", though.
 

rainee

New member
Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory
Hugo Mercier
Dan Sperber

Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Vol. 34, No. 2, pp. 57-74, 2011

Abstract:
Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation. A wide range of evidence in the psychology of reasoning and decision making can be reinterpreted and better explained in the light of this hypothesis. Poor performance in standard reasoning tasks is explained by the lack of argumentative context. When the same problems are placed in a proper argumentative setting, people turn out to be skilled arguers. Skilled arguers, however, are not after the truth but after arguments supporting their views. This explains the notorious confirmation bias. This bias is apparent not only when people are actually arguing but also when they are reasoning proactively from the perspective of having to defend their opinions. Reasoning so motivated can distort evaluations and attitudes and allow erroneous beliefs to persist. Proactively used reasoning also favors decisions that are easy to justify but not necessarily better. In all these instances traditionally described as failures or flaws, reasoning does exactly what can be expected of an argumentative device: Look for arguments that support a given conclusion, and, ceteris paribus, favor conclusions for which arguments can be found.

Good Morning Barbarian!
Hmm, wow, thanks for posting that, very thought provoking...
I want to look into their claims further but for now - let's argue about it!

In the short version reason comes from ratio and ratio - ah yes ratio may mean something to math people but you may be familiar with this:
ULTIMA RATIO REGUM
Latin.
1. the final argument of kings (a resort to arms): motto engraved on the cannon of Louis XIV.

At first glance this "last argument of kings" may seem to support what those two were saying but the connection between "argument" and "reason" which comes from "ratio" seems rather to judge, behold:
Word Origin and History for ratio
n.

1630s, "reason, rationale," from Latin ratio "reckoning, numbering, calculation; business affair, procedure," also "reason, reasoning, judgment, understanding," from rat-, past participle stem of reri "to reckon, calculate," also "think" (see reason (n.)). Mathematical sense "relationship between two numbers" is attested from 1650s.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

So are they saying we humans cannot make proper sound judgements?
What is the evidence for their claim of "epistemic distortions and poor decisions"?

I reckon they could be wrong.
 

PureX

Well-known member
So are they saying we humans cannot make proper sound judgements?
Being that there is no one to make this judgment but we humans, I'd have to say that's an impossible question to answer. And perhaps that's part of the point, here. We have no way of knowing if our judgments are sound, or not. I mean, we almost always think they are, but we almost always think they are even when they turn out not to be. So clearly our assumptions in this regard are suspect. (Though few of us are actually willing to entertain those suspicions as a matter of course. Humility is not our strong suit.)
 

rainee

New member
Being that there is no one to make this judgment but we humans, I'd have to say that's an impossible question to answer. And perhaps that's part of the point, here. We have no way of knowing if our judgments are sound, or not. I mean, we almost always think they are, but we almost always think they are even when they turn out not to be. So clearly our assumptions in this regard are suspect. (Though few of us are actually willing to entertain those suspicions as a matter of course. Humility is not our strong suit.)

Hi! :)

Well that is where arguing comes in - or rather - debate, right?
We are supposed to see the different positions and what they offer and choose what is closest to "right" according to our judgement, yes?

What about this question: Can a jury come up with a proper
judgement after hearing the arguments from both sides?
 

rainee

New member
Ok you just helped me to change my mind about ULTIMA RATIO.
Rather than a judgement I guess it is the final argument by being an offering in the argument that can't be refused! (Like an offer you can't refuse!)
 

PureX

Well-known member
Hi! :)

Well that is where arguing comes in - or rather - debate, right?
We are supposed to see the different positions and what they offer and choose what is closest to "right" according to our judgement, yes?
But that's what Barbarian is pointing out: that we can only argue from the ideas we already hold. Which in effect means we are defending our current bias rather than questioning it. So that such argumentation causes further entrenchment of the bias, and thwarts skepticism more often than it enlightens anyone. Yet we presume that argument and debate enlighten us. (And that in itself is mostly an errant presumption!)
What about this question: Can a jury come up with a proper judgement after hearing the arguments from both sides?
They will come up with a judgment. And if they followed 'proper' procedures I suppose it will be a 'proper' judgment. But is it an accurate assessment of what happened? Who knows? If they are wrong, they don't know it, and if they don't know, how could we?
 

bybee

New member
But that's what Barbarian is pointing out: that we can only argue from the ideas we already hold. Which in effect means we are defending our current bias rather than questioning it. So that such argumentation causes further entrenchment of the bias, and thwarts skepticism more often than it enlightens anyone. Yet we presume that argument and debate enlighten us. (And that in itself is mostly an errant presumption!)
They will come up with a judgment. And if they followed 'proper' procedures I suppose it will be a 'proper' judgment. But is it an accurate assessment of what happened? Who knows? If they are wrong, they don't know it, and if they don't know, how could we?

"No man is an island...."
Everything we see everything we hear everything we experience has an effect on us. We grow, we learn, we change.
Or else we'd still be working with stone tools.
I hope that your words of chronic pessimism are not a reflection of your own implacability?
 

rainee

New member
Wow, ok, I don't know what men mean.
Here look from List of Latin phrases:
ultima ratio

Notes:
The last resort. Short form for the metaphor "The Last Resort of Kings and Common Men" referring to the act of declaring war; used in the names the French sniper rifle PGM Ultima Ratio and the fictional Reason weapon system. Louis XIV of France had Ultima Ratio Regum ("last argument of kings") cast on the cannons of his armies; motto of the 1st Battalion 11th Marines; motto of the Artilleriregementet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(U)

So men say the last argument is fighting?
(I could say oh so typical)
 

rainee

New member
"No man is an island...."
Everything we see everything we hear everything we experience has an effect on us. We grow, we learn, we change.
Or else we'd still be working with stone tools.
I hope that your words of chronic pessimism are not a reflection of your own implacability?

"Everything we see everything we hear everything we experience has an effect on us. We grow, we learn, we change."
So Lovely! Heart of a Poet!
 

PureX

Well-known member
"No man is an island...."
Everything we see everything we hear everything we experience has an effect on us. We grow, we learn, we change.
And yet we never achieve omniscience. In fact, many a wise man has noted that the more they've learned, the more there was to be learned.
 
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