ECT Open Theism?

[Swifty357]

I was thinking of getting books by RC Sproul instead of piper but the one time I watches his show online he talked about someone asking him if he was saved in public and he acted like it offended him to the core. He said saved from what? Like he is to high and mighty that some rabble dare worry about his eternal soul. I never watched him again because it struck me the wrong way. Maybe I misread him. I know a lot of people think highly of him. Put I have an app on my phone that shows videos of Piper answering questions . He is very emotional and seems to be the real deal so I went with him over Sproul.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Tambora]

It is the bible that denies God's omniscience, not Open theism. It was Plato that said that God is a know it all, not the bible. The only reason you believe it because the doctrine was introduced into the Christian religion by Augistine who all but worshiped the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato).

I agree.

You will hear folks state that God can do anything (omnipotent).
And then those same folks will turn right around and say things like :
God cannot lie.
God cannot dwell in darkness.
God cannot make Himself not be God.
Obviously they didn't think things through too well.

 

[Clete]

I wonder why both cant be true. Just because God is all knowing shouldnt mean he decreed all things to happen that way.

But that is precisely what Calvinists believe!

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)


“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

And perhaps more importantly is the fact that these doctrine do follow logically from the premise that God is immutable (that He cannot change in any way whatsoever). In other words, you can't just pick and choose which doctrine you like and which you want throw out. At least you can't do that and claim that you have a rationally coherent doctrine.

Further, if God knows everything in advance you have no free will....

T = You will answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am.

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
    Source

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I agree.

You will hear folks state that God can do anything (omnipotent).
And then those same folks will turn right around and say things like :
God cannot lie.
God cannot dwell in darkness.
God cannot make Himself not be God.
Obviously they didn't think things through too well.

Precisely! God cannot do the rationally absurd. He cannot do and not do the same thing. He cannot make a perfect sphere with sharp corners and 7 edges because to do it would be to not do it. God is not absurd. Indeed, God is Reason (Logos).

 

[Swifty357]

Clete I agree with a lot of points you made in your last. I have no ties to Rome and know absolutely no creeds at all. I hear them mentioned sometimes and am curious about what heidlborg, westminister, and the apostles creed are. But I too believe the Bible is our only guide to what God wants us to learn, and how we should live, ect. If any creed disagrees with scripture i would have no problem throwing the creed in the trash as profane. If GOD was interested in us learning creeds he would have put some in the Bible. I agree God is way more loving than these reformed calvinist can grasp. If he was some micromanaging God who is behind all evil and terrible sex crimes and murder, ect. He would not have sent his Son to die on the cross for us. That image of God seems cold and impersonal, and would give us no reason to pray to him because his will is settled and even he cannot change his decree. That is blasphemy as far as im concerned. God could have saved the Son on the cross with an army of anfavoif he wanted to. My God can do anything he pleases. Change his mind when Nineveh repents. Send down fire to annihilate Sodom. He can cast Israel aside for unbelief and stiff necks and save us gentiles by grace through faith without works. And he could slap an enemy of Christians down on the way to damacus and make him our apostle and change his name to Paul while he switches gears and save a people with no promises of history to expect anything so glorious as unmerited favor and being grafted in to the natural tree. My God is all knowing and all powerful but also our heavenly Father who loves us and wants us to do good and walk as children of the light.being longsuffering and patient giving even the worst of us chances to repent. Why do you think God cant know how everything will turn out because he already seen the consumation of all things. But gave us freewill and didnt force or control us to be robots with no will of our own. while making us do terribly evil crimes we couldnt change if we wanted to. I see no problem with God knowing everything but allowing us to exercise our own wills so we can choose evil or good. God would just be an observer then not the cause of all evil or the reason we go to hell by his decree.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Eagles Wings]

I was thinking of getting books by RC Sproul instead of piper but the one time I watches his show online he talked about someone asking him if he was saved in public and he acted like it offended him to the core. He said saved from what? Like he is to high and mighty that some rabble dare worry about his eternal soul. I never watched him again because it struck me the wrong way. Maybe I misread him. I know a lot of people think highly of him. Put I have an app on my phone that shows videos of Piper answering questions . He is very emotional and seems to be the real deal so I went with him over Sproul.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

This is one of the first books I read when I began studying God's Sovereignty. Hope you will give it a go, along with your other studies.

https://www.amazon.com/Sovereignty-...4_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8Q8GVBNFSYAHF5RHZ9QZ

 

[Swifty357]

Im confused why you think Gods foreknowledge would limit our freewill. He could know exactly what happens because he sees the end from the beginning. But allthings we do was on us alone it doesnt mean God made us do good or evil. Im not sure why everyone thinks Gods knowledge would hamper us in our freewill choices.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nang]

The problem is that the notion that God knows everything in advance is not biblical, which is where Enyart and other Open Theists start.

Denial of the divine attribute of Omniscience is indeed the beginning and foundation of Open Theism. (Clete)

Coupled with denial of the divine attributes of Simplicity and Immutability (Tambora), Open Theists give ample evidence of their denial of God Almighty altogether, and self-incriminate themselves as being heretics and atheists.

So, it isn't that Open Theists begin with a rejection of Omniscience because of some false premise as you suggest, its that we reject EVERYTHING that isn't rationally biblical.

"Rationally biblical?" According to which rationalist? You?

Christians regenerated with the mindset of Jesus Christ, have faith given to them that all the Holy Scriptures are breathed by God.

Heretics deny the inspiration and authority of the Word of God, in many various attempts and ways, but it won't work. Matthew 24:35

 

[Swifty357]

Ok say i could go watch next years superbowl today. I would know who wins even if its not the team i wanted. But my knowledge of who wins doesnt make that team win. They just outplayed the other team with brains and brawn, maybe got some breaks ect but the win is theirs that day. My foreknowledge didnt cause the winner to win or the loser to lose im just a spectator not a nfl player.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Swifty357]

So if God being a spectator at next years superbowl already may know who wins but had absolutely no bearing on who wins or loses the players settled that on the field and the best team won.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nang]

Ok say i could go watch next years superbowl today. I would know who wins even if its not the team i wanted. But my knowledge of who wins doesnt make that team win. They just outplayed the other team with brains and brawn, maybe got some breaks ect but the win is theirs that day. My foreknowledge didnt cause the winner to win or the loser to lose im just a spectator not a nfl player.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

Godly foreknowledge is the essence of His attributes, and it is His attributes that are causal. Not vice versa . . .

Those who attempt to reduce or eliminate any attributes of God (Open Theists, etc.) do so only to reduce the very powers and results of Creator God to humanistic levels . . displaying they do not even believe in Creator God, and by so doing, prove to be nothing better than unbelieving atheists.

 

[Nang]

So if God being a spectator at next years superbowl already may know who wins but had absolutely no bearing on who wins or loses the players settled that on the field and the best team won.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

God is NOT a spectator. That is Deism.

 

[Swifty357]

Because God is fair and just he let the better team carry the day. Of course he could cause a team to win or lose if he wanted to monkey with the game. But thats not Gods style he isnt like Loki a mythological trickster God. He is Jehovah Lord of all and his justice will allow for the teams and players to make their own destiny.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nang]

Because God is fair and just he let the better team carry the day. Of course he could cause a team to win or lose if he wanted to monkey with the game. But thats not Gods style he isnt like Loki a mythological trickster God. He is Jehovah Lord of all and his justice will allow for the teams and players to make their own destiny.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

No.

You are describing nothing better than Deism.

Sovereign God Almighty determines the destiny of all, according to His good will and pleasure, which is not contingent upon the good or bad actions of His creatures at all.

Romans 9:11

 

[Eagles Wings]

Because God is fair and just he let the better team carry the day. Of course he could cause a team to win or lose if he wanted to monkey with the game. But thats not Gods style he isnt like Loki a mythological trickster God. He is Jehovah Lord of all and his justice will allow for the teams and players to make their own destiny.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

As you will read in Pink's book, "God, as God, does as He pleases, when He pleases (sovereign). It means that He is in complete control of all things that are and that happen." (Pink)

Romans 11:36

 

[Swifty357]

Im saying God knows allthings and is all powerful. He knows who wins every superbowl till the end of time. Im saying he lets his creatures have freewill and play the games themselves. God isnt the qb for the colts. I wish he was we could use a perfect qb who never makes mistakes or loses. Im saying the games still need playing by men. Are you saying you believe God actually is interfering in these games? If that makes me a deist or not im not sure what that is. I believe God lets each team do there best and isnt changing results in the super bowl. You believe he wont even let humans play a recreational sport without getting involved? If so the winners shouldnt get the lombardy trophy if they needed divine interfering to win.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[jamie]

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)​

The expression "whoever desires" suggests of their own volition.

 

[Nang]

As you will read in Pink's book, "God, as God, does as He pleases, when He pleases (sovereign). It means that He is in complete control of all things that are and that happen." (Pink)

Romans 11:36

Yes, this is omniscience, which Deists attempt to reduce to mere foreknowledge.

God is not a "bookie" who simply determines who is the "better team" and places His bets accordingly.

God created all things, according to the powers of His infinite omniscience, omnipotence, and immutable decree, that ensure and assure, that all things will work together for good for those who love (honor) Him.

This is the revelation of God found in the Holy Scriptures.

Anyone who attempts to reduce or remove these truths, are suspect, if not outright atheists.

 

[Nang]

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)​

The expression "whoever desires" suggests of their own volition.

Agreed . . .

But only Sovereign God can change the heart and mind, of any sinner, to volitionally desire to know, believe, and obey God.

Regeneration precedes faith and willful holy living.

 

[Swifty357]

Then Calvinist live in a fantasy world. I live on earth the creation of God as is everything in the world. But my mistakes are my own. If i go inside the kitchen anf and punch my wife tonight you would chalk that up to God making me do that? Then why would the police come and take me to jail? What if I decided to have a beer tonight. I havent drank alcohol in 15 years because i was a problem drinker and decided it wasnt good for me to drink so i quit long ago. This true and why i quit. You think God is to blame if i decide to drink a beer tonight of my own volition? If so we serve two totally different Gods. My mistakes in life are my own. I dont blame God anytime I sin or do something stupid. If that makes me a deist then i guess i am. How would anyone be accountable for anything they do in this life if you think God is personally controlling us all. How could he damn anyone to hell? This flies in the face of all reality and is ridiculous to anyone who has actually lived on this earth. If that is calvanism its a demonic heresy with no basis in the real world.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app