One-on-One: AMR and God's Truth — The Holy Trinity

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.

God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH JESUS. See Titus 3:6. whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. See Romans 5:5.

God poured out the Holy Spirit through Jesus in one of the scriptures, and the other says God poured out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

This confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

Jesus is the Spirit. Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17 all tell us Jesus is the Spirit. See also 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, and 1 Corinthians 15:45.

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

Jesus is a life giving Spirit, see 1 Corinthians 15:45.

The Spirit gives life; see 2 Corinthians 3:6; and John 5:21.

Those scriptures right there prove Jesus is the Spirit.

The sword of the Spirit is the word of God see Ephesians 6:17

“Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”

The SWORD is the Word of God.

Jesus is the word of God. See John 1:1.

The SWORD is Jesus the WORD OF GOD.

Jesus’ name is the Word of God, see Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God, and Jesus is the sword.

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Jesus is the Rider and the sword is coming from him.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That scripture shows Jesus is God, for Jesus is the Word of God.

Jesus is the Spirit. Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17 all tell us Jesus is the Spirit. See also 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, and 1 Corinthians 15:45.

God is Spirit, see John 4:24.

Jesus' words are Spirit see John 6:63.

We can see from the scriptures that Jesus is the Word of God, the sword is the Word of God, the sword is Jesus’ sword, the Word of God is God, God is Spirit; the words are Spirit; therefore, Jesus whom is God is Spirit.

God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all three One and the same.

Ask Mr. Religion · Dec 12, 2013

Are you done yet, GT? It seems you are becoming desperate now that you realize how you have wasted your time and that time is now running out.

Have you made your final remarks or are you going to now just continue to spam this thread with more repetitions?

AMR

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

Ask Mr. Religion said:
Are you done yet, GT? It seems you are becoming desperate now that you realize how you have wasted your time and that time is now running out.

Have you made your final remarks or are you going to now just continue to spam this thread with more repetitions?

AMR

Bearing false witness and slandering are coming from your heart.

You cannot defend your false doctrines in any other way but to personally attack.

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

I hope that all will read and study what I have written, and that it will bring you peace in the knowledge of God.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;

God's Truth · Dec 12, 2013

God's Truth said:
No. Explain it here plainly and clearly. I did not find it in your previous post. If you have the truth, repeat it, as I have many times.

Mr. Religion shows that he can only copy and paste, but not explain anything on his own, or he would.

Ask Mr. Religion · Dec 12, 2013

This will be my concluding post to this debate. That said, I suspect that GT’s most recent evidenced desperation, in hopes of redeeming her heretofore, poor performance to defend herself will surface after this final post. The debate has run its allotted two-week course and I want to thank Knight once again for arranging this One-on-One.

I have wanted to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity at length so that we could all have an opportunity to come to a better understanding of this most important Scriptural topic. As member Lon noted in the parallel discussion thread for this One-on-One, given the presence of vocal anti-Trinitarians at TOL, it would also be useful to have a localized collection of matters related to the Trinity that could be simply pointed to in other discussions. Obviously, the doctrine of the Trinity is a difficult topic. Anytime our finite minds attempt to comprehend the ineffable, we are bound to run into difficulties imposed by the limits of our words and our corrupted reasoning faculties (1 Corinthians 13:12) to express the inexpressible. Augustine, when writing about the Trinity, observed that denying the Trinity will cost you your soul, and trying to fully understand it will cost you your mind.

I am in hearty agreement with the bishop of Hippo. Firstly, the church declares deniers of the Trinity to be among the lost. Those that deny the Trinity have no claim to “Christian” for they have placed their faith (knowledge, assent, trust) in an intellectual idol of their own making. Let no true Christian delude themselves into thinking that because some who claim to be “Christian” are “sincere” in their anti-Trinitarianism that said persons are their Christian brethren. Secondly, attempting to fully apprehend God is akin to becoming God. Lastly, we know the consequences when encountering mere glimpses of our sovereign God—Isaiah 6:5). It is no surprise, then, that the Trinity is a very good litmus test of orthodoxy, for if one examines the various cults and religions in the world they will find that denial of the Trinity marks them all. All of which brings me to my opponent in this One-on-One.

Unfortunately, TOL member, God’s Truth (GT), is a representative example of the above. From this One-on-One the depth of GT’s departures from the teachings of Scripture should be glaringly obvious. Among GT’s errors include the denial of the personal distinctions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the pre-existence of Jesus in a glorified body, and that Jesus Christ is literally God’s soul. In fact, had this One-on-One ran longer, I have no doubt that even more odd views would have emerged. GT is caught in the web of confusion and contradiction that inevitably arises given GT’s woodenly literal approach to the Scriptures.

Given GT’s wooden literalistic view of Holy Writ, there is no context, no historical-grammatical hermeneutic, and no examination of the full counsel of Scripture. Rather GT relies solely upon the bare naked and isolated verse(s) of Scripture for her heretical views. Even when confronted with closer examination of Scripture, bolstered by the underlying language, GT refuses to budge, for to her, the stark literal words of any verse of English translations Scripture stand alone.

In fact, when asked how she chooses the English translations, GT replies “I choose a translation that says what I know is clearer.” Readers, please examine that declaration closely. Incredulously, it is apparently GT’s special gift to know which English translation is the one to choose on any different occasion, for she selects various English translations to fit her preconceptions—what she knows is clearer. Even more suspect, GT holds that knowledge of the underlying languages of Scripture in disdain. According to GT, anyone that has educated himself or herself such as to acquire a proper facility with these ancient languages has been deceived by schools “tell[ing] you that the scriptures do not really mean what they say.”

Considering this sacred topic for discussion, GT frequently complained that “too many words” are being written about the topic. Sadly, I am not surprised, given this era’s propensity to desire everything in vapid “sound bites”—quick fixes for the McTheology®-minded. Our beloved God saw to it that around 545,202 Hebrew and Greek words are needed for God’s final and special revelation (the Bible) yet our most sparse modern English translation (HCSB) requires 718,943 words, a near 32% increase. (For the KJV proponent, that would be 788,280 words.)

And before I move on to my summary statements, one last observation about GT’s tactics are in order. GT often intimated “You are merely repeating what the scriptures say. You are not explaining anything.” A fair reading of our One-on-One should quickly disabuse anyone of this empty claim. In fact it was my frequent and unmet complaint that GT simply quoted verses from Scripture and then rested her, er, argument as if nothing more were to be said in defense of her position. In retrospect, and as no doubt some were thinking and have expressed, “What was AMR thinking in entering into a debate with GT?”, I readily concede that GT was an unarmed participant in this debate. Despite GT’s frequent drive-by, anti-Trinitarian postings at TOL, including a direct September 2013 debate boasting challenge, all of which belied advanced knowledge of the topic, I underestimated GT’s competency with the same. This became apparent in her first quasi-substantial post wherein it was clear that she could only “repeat what the Scripture say” without “explaining anything.” As the discussion continued, GT demonstrated she was unable to meet her burden in defense of her heterodoxies.

In my opening post I clearly laid out my and every orthodox Trinitarian’s position. This was an proper opportunity for GT to defend her position against my stated opening argument. Rather than avail herself of the opportunity, GT elected to squander her time. Oddly, while GT has long claimed she possesses “God’s Truth”, she retreated into unsubstantiated naked assertions and trivialities.

In discussion of the Trinity I have found that starting with the question “Who is Jesus Christ?” is the most effective means of discovering the opposition’s position and then treating the issues that will arrive related to the Godhead.

We are taught from Scripture,
- that Jesus was fully God and fully man;
- that Jesus’ divinity was identical to and the same substance of the one absolute God;
- that Jesus possessed one soul, a rational human soul;
- that Jesus is a distinct person of the Triune Godhead;
- that the divinity of Jesus is not merely the one absolute God acting in illusionary form (this is the root heresy of GT)
- that when the divine Son of God assumed a humanity for union with the divinity that some mixture or change took place in the divine essence;
- that there is but one distinct person, not two distinct persons, in Jesus Christ;
- that Jesus possessed a true humanity;
- that the divinity of Jesus was not lessened, removed, or laid aside as a result of the assumption of the humanity;
- that neither the divine nature nor the human nature of Jesus communicated between these natures; and
- that Jesus did not exist independently as a human, or in a glorified body, before God the Son assumed a human nature (this is GT’s secondary root heresy).

Once we engage the opponent of Trinitarianism along these lines, their confusion will readily bubble to the surface and a fruitful discussion may proceed. Any subsequent discussion should be focused such that it leads to the following fundamental truths from Scripture:

1. There is in the divine being but one indivisible essence (ousia, essential), see Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5.
2. In this one divine Being there are three personal distinctions (what the church calls persons), or individual subsistences, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, see Genesis 1:1, 26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1, Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
3. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons, see John 6:27, Romans 1:7, 1 Peter 1:2, John 1:1, 14, Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16.
4. The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the divine Being is marked by a certain definite order, see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, 1 John 4:14, John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, John 16:13-14.
5. There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguished, see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4:11, Revelation 1:1, John 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:1, 16:12-15, Matthew 11:27, Revelation 1:1, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Matthew 1:21, John 4:42, Genesis 1:2, Job 26:13, Psalm 104:30, John 16:12-15, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Peter 1:21, John 3:6, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 1:2, Isaiah 61:1, Acts 10:38.
6. The church confesses the Trinity to be a mystery beyond the comprehension of man (Romans 11:33-34).

The “short version” of the above can be plainly stated as follows:

1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
4. The Father is not the Son
5. The Son is not the Holy Spirit
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father
7. There is only one God.

Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matthew 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Corinthians 15; Ephesians 2:8-10). Because these central doctrines define the truths of Scripture, the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.

Admittedly, these central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree. Peripheral doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still be heaven bound, but one cannot deny salvation by grace, the deity of Jesus Christ, the Triune Godhead and be saved.

In conclusion, I want to thank those that have actively participated in this discussion. It is my prayer that it be the will of God that we all be edified by this discussion to the glory of God (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 10:31; 2 Corinthians 10:5; Philippians 4:8, Colossians 3:17).

AMR
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One-on-One: AMR and God's Truth — The Holy Trinity

God's Truth

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