One Mystery, comprised of various aspects unique to said Mystery.
ECT ONE MORE REASON WHY ISRAEL WAS SET ASIDE !!
- Thread starter DAN P
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One Mystery, comprised of various aspects unique to said Mystery.
Hi and you mean the MYSTERY of His WILL , Eph 1:9 ?
#2 , The Dispensation of the MYSTERY in Eph 3:9 ?
#3 , The MYSTERY of Christ , Col 4:3 and 4 ?
#4 , The RICHES of thr glory of this MYSTERY ? Eph 1:18
#5 , The MYSTERY of God , and of the FATHER and of Christ , Col 2:2 ?
#6 , THE preaching of Jesus Christ according to the Revelation of thr MYSTERY Rom 16:25 ?
#7 , The MYSTERY that contains the ONLY for a person can be saved today in Eph 2:8 ?
#8 This is the MYSTERY that prepares people for Heaven ??
#9 The MYSTERY hidded from other AGES and Generation , Col 1:26 ?
#10 , You mean the MYSTERY only found in Paul's writing ?
Is this what you mean ??
dan p
All those books, and you can't even read intended sense - fact is, you matter not as to these issues, and couldn't any less, as I have nothing against you personally, and never have.
It is your off-base assertions I am addressing.
Acts 15: 16's "After this I will return," is in reference to Amos 9:11's "In that day..."
8. Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Your "do the history first" "read Luke into Paul..." ends you up with your mis-fire of verse 11 and 12 turned into your misinterpretation of Acts 13 and 15, Romans 9, Romans 15, Galatians 3, your Ephesians 2a thru 3b, your misinterpretation of 70AD, etc.
No. I don't know you, and have nothing against you (never have, and you know I have proven as much).
I know your view; it is that that we greatly differ on.
Hi and I was trying to say a different point , is why I wrote that !!
His main message was the MYSTERY kept hidden , from the Ages and Generations , period !! Eph 1:4 and Col 1:25 and 26 and Paul did not speak of two Bodies , Soul sleep ETC , ETC !!
dan p
Consider his point DP.
He wrote "Not necessarily true, Dan P....Paul preached about at least 7 different mysteries, yet there is only one Body."
If I have understood him and heir properly, they hold that Romans 16:26's "scriptures of the prophets" refers to a Mystery salvation preached by Paul that was hidden in the OT.
They also hold that Ephesians 2 is not that salvation.
Thus, his... "Not necessarily true, Dan P....Paul preached about at least 7 different mysteries, yet there is only one Body."
Its why I asked you in another post, DP, if you held to Romans 16:26's "scriptures of the prophets" in the same sense that Brock had held to it - that it is a reference to Paul's own writings.
Thus far, that makes two different views on the sense of that verse, of the three views held.
Fascinating...
Hi and in post #22 , I lsted 10 points that Paul wrote about and I do not think that it is complete !
If you are Acts 9 , you leave a lot to be desired , for an Acts 9:6 that can not explain HOW Paul was saved not believe that Col 1:25 an verse 26 apply nor believe Eph 1:4 OR 2 Tim 1:9 !!
We were CHOSEN before the foundation of creation , don't you see ??
This is why I say that Dispensationalist are also messed up along with everyone else !!!
dan p
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We'll have to differ on this chosen aspect.
My own understanding as to the Mystery's eternal glory aspect (God's intent in a New Creature) is that before the foundation of the world, the Father determined to do some things in - His - Son by Spirit in a New Creature: The Body of Christ.
And that the moment we trust the gospel of our salvation, and the Spirit places in the Son, that we then become part of this that Paul refers to as - note carefully - chosen in Him, Romans 8.
Til then, we are not a part of that, we are, in fact: lost. We are, in Adam, by nature, the children of disobedience, Eph. 1-3.
What are you; a Calvinist :chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
what is the gap of Acts 15?
In between God’s’ turning from Israel in His wrath, and His blessing of Believing Israel...is His pouring out His wrath upon them, Amos 9:8a and 8b and 8c.
The conclusion at Acts 15 being that God's visit among the Gentiles was in agreement with Amos 9: 8a and 8b's gap in time prior to believing Israel's own blessing - a gap in time in between their own blessing that their Prophets had foreseen:
God turns from Israel in His wrath... this then follows His pouring out of His wrath... followed by Believing Israel's blessing.
But God had kept a secret, and now that read as follows:
God turns from Israel in His wrath... (but then He reveals a Mystery visit among the Gentiles)...this then follows His pouring out of His wrath... followed by Believing Israel's blessing, Rom. 11:23-29.
As this Mystery visit of God's among the Gentiles is within Believing Israel's delayed blessing, it is in agreement with it - it does not make God's promise to Israel "of none effect," Rom. 3:3.
Of course, this is reading Paul into Luke, not your other way around.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It is not a visit, as though one group was over here and another over there. How anyone could miss that is beyond me. That is 2P2P and it is not in the NT. If Judaism had it (Gal 3:17) it was one of their mistakes to be abandoned.
The mystery is Eph 3:6's "through the Gospel" That means that Israel knew what they were supposed to do: bring the nations into one people. But they thought it was done through the LAW. They had missionaries out doing so, Mt 23. This is the reason why Paul's polemic language is filled with contrasting LAW and GOSPEL/FAITH.
The things of Eph 3:6 were fulfilled through the Gospel. That is the piece that Israel as such could not see coming. That is what unifies believers, gives all believers the blessing, and citizenship, and commonwealth, now in the present. We all enjoy Christ the Gospel and do so now. It shocks the 'principalities and powers' to see humans in fellowship in Christ (3:10).
It is the other Israel that Paul mentioned several times in 9-11 that is justified from their sins. That's the Israel he's concerned with. It has already begun. "Saved" is not a geo-political theocratic entity. It never is in Romans.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Genesis 12
1 Now the LORD said to Abram, Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father's house, to the land which I will show you;
2 and I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing;
3 and I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.
Genesis 17
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Jeremiah 33
19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:
20 "Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me."
Zechariah 12
1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
2 Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
4 In that day, declares the LORD, I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.
Isaiah 41
8 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, descendant of Abraham My friend,
9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from its remotest parts and said to you, You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.
10 Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.
11 Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish.
12 You will seek those who quarrel with you, but will not find them, Those who war with you will be as nothing and non-existent.
13 For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, Do not fear, I will help you.
14 Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you, declares the LORD, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
15 Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff.
16 You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away, And the storm will scatter them; But you will rejoice in the LORD, You will glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Joel 3
1 For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,
3 and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it.
4 What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will return your payment on your own head swiftly and speedily.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 Now the LORD said to Abram, Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father's house, to the land which I will show you;
2 and I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing;
3 and I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.
Genesis 17
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Jeremiah 33
19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:
20 "Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me."
Zechariah 12
1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
2 Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
4 In that day, declares the LORD, I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.
Isaiah 41
8 But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, descendant of Abraham My friend,
9 You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from its remotest parts and said to you, You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you.
10 Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.
11 Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish.
12 You will seek those who quarrel with you, but will not find them, Those who war with you will be as nothing and non-existent.
13 For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, Do not fear, I will help you.
14 Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you, declares the LORD, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
15 Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff.
16 You will winnow them, and the wind will carry them away, And the storm will scatter them; But you will rejoice in the LORD, You will glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Joel 3
1 For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,
3 and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it.
4 What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will return your payment on your own head swiftly and speedily.
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
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Hi and you say , you disagree , so , all of it or which part ??
Not a Calvinist ??
dan p
We were not chosen before the foundation of the world. That is not what Eph. 1:4, and its surrounding passages, says.
Yours is what a surface level, or first impression reading will lead one to conclude the passage(s) appear to be saying.
Hi and who did you learn that from ?
Eph 1:4 says , Just as He CHOOSES for Himself in Him BEFORE / PRO overthrow of World us to be holy and without Blemish BEFORE/PRO Him in love !!
#1 , The verb " He hath chosen " is in the PAST TENSE an what is called the AORIST TENSE and means it happened before the creation of the world !!
#2 , The other Greek verb is " should be /EINAI is in the Greek Present TENSE and means we have to be a CONTINUOUS ACTION of being CHOSEN !!
#3 Check G 1586 in STRONG'S to see what CHOSEN means and this means you are dead WRONG in your REPLY .
Only Low informational students believe what you wrote and 2 Tin 1:9 really shoots you down !!
dan p
From what little I know, you appear to have the Greek senses down well enough, and often do, as they are just their rules of Grammar within that language, no big deal.
What you're often missing is the scope and setting within which Paul is using them.
And ones does not get that from verb tenses, mood modifiers and all the rest.
Rather, from within the "culture" (Body Truth) Paul was given to lay the foundation of and write from.
Time you got off your Romans 11 high horse as to this higher adavantage in the Greek you have concluded you have; time you try some Romans 12 mind renewing.
The Greek sense is very important, yes. But in its place; within its important contribution to a sense of the whole picture, not as the whole picture itself.
Otherwise it too often leads to as many off-base assertions as merely taking a passage as it reads often results in.
Hi and you did not reply to Eph 1:4 or maybe 2 Tim 1:9 would be worst for anyone writing what you wrote !!
The verb tenses help explain what the Holy Spirit really wanted to say , so get with the Holy Spirit !!
Matthew through Revelation is written in Greek and not in English , don't you see !!
Gal 3:28 explains the 12 IN and the 12 OUT position and without the Greek all is conjecture so , what verse in Rom 11 do you disagree with me ??
Give me ONE ??
You say get off my high Horse , so how HIGH IS YOUR HORSE ??
dan p
Paul is not talking about what was given to us before the foundation of the world, rather; to what was given to us IN Christ.
Its in HIM.
You become a part of what God chose to do IN HIM only IF you believe the gospel of ITS salvation.
You become a part of this New Creature He chose to form IN HIM only IF you believe.
You are THEN "accepted IN the Beloved."
Only THEN does God put you IN His Son, and begins to form your inward man INTO the image of His Son, Rom. 8; Eph. 4.
Are you not aware that just about everything in Ephesians is in Romans and visa versa?
Because Romans is the Cross of Ephesians and Ephesians is the eternal purpose of Romans.
One is the issue of the Cross' Mystery salvation, the other is the issue of unto what intended Mystery purpose is said salvation.
That is the setting, scope, and context we need to read all that Greek mood, sense, object, etc., from.
Hi and you can never address Eph 1:4 and I said for you to examine 2 Tim 1:9 and in that verse it does have the Greek words " in Christ " BUT you will not listen !!
How high is your HORSEY ??
DAN P
