ECT Once Saved, Always Saved

[Fisherofmen]

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Which brings us back to the Jews, doesn't it? Hebrews is the name of the book.

Romans 3:1-2
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.​

As I said, you would have to be an unbeliever to interpret Heb 6:4-6 as referring to the unsaved Jews. You are proving yourself to be just that.

Yes, I am, and that is what Danoh was going on about. Look at Pentecost. All those people heard the words spoken in their own language. Is that not partaking of the Holy Ghost?

No. Those who were speaking were the partakers. Those who heard were astonished, but they were not personally partaking in the Holy Ghost. Heb 6:4-6 also states that the partakers taste the word of God and are enlightened. This is because they are saved. Those who heard the partakers of the Holy Ghost were not enlightened at all. These unenlightened mockers said...

Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this? But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine.(Acts 2:11-13).

Don't like that?

I liked it very much. It strengthened my argument significantly.

 

[Danoh]

Romans 3:1-2
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.​

As I said, you would have to be an unbeliever to interpret Heb 6:4-6 as referring to the unsaved Jews. You are proving yourself to be just that.



No. Those who were speaking were the partakers. Those who heard were astonished, but they were not personally partaking in the Holy Ghost. Heb 6:4-6 also states that the partakers taste the word of God and are enlightened. This is because they are saved. Those who heard the partakers of the Holy Ghost were not enlightened at all. These unenlightened mockers said...

Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this? But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine.(Acts 2:11-13).




I liked it very much. It strengthened my argument significantly.

You're off - their audience HEARD them in EACH said audience member's OWN tongue.

That is how that particular manifestation of said gift of tongues was Prophesied would operate...

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.

At the same time, they heard them not.

One sense of heard refers to the hearing of words.

Another refers to the believing of said words.

A passage like the following refers to both types of meanings...

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

lol - obviously, you don't hear very well.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[Fisherofmen]

You're off - their audience HEARD them in EACH said audience member's OWN tongue.

That is how that particular manifestation of said gift of tongues was Prophesied would operate...

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.

At the same time, they heard them not.

One sense of heard refers to the hearing of words.

Another refers to the believing of said words.

A passage like the following refers to both types of meanings...

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

lol - obviously, you don't hear very well.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11, 12.

No. Those who were speaking were the partakers. Those who heard were astonished, but they were not personally partaking in the Holy Ghost. Heb 6:4-6 also states that the partakers taste the word of God and are enlightened. This is because they are saved. Those who heard the partakers of the Holy Ghost were not enlightened at all. These unenlightened mockers said...

Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this? But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine.(Acts 2:11-13).

You are in your own world right now. Hopefully you will snap out of it soon. Let me try to help you. THE LISTENERS WERE NOT ENLIGHTENED. ALL WERE ASTONISHED AND SOME MOCKED. They witnessed and heard a miracle, but they were no more saved (at that point) then the the blind scribes and pharisees who witnessed the miracles of Christ Himself, and also were astonished and mocked. Only AFTER Peter's preaching were many of these saved (about 3000), through belief, penance and baptism. It was THEN that they themselves partook in the Holy Ghost...

But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Acts 2:38)

Obviously you have trouble comprehending the clear words of Scripture.

 

[Fisherofmen]

As difficult as obliviousness to the following makes it...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12

Justified by faith without works of the MOSAIC law.

Good works are certainly needed...

And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

But wilt thou know, O vain (foolish) man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Justified by faith without works of the MOSAIC law.

Good works are certainly needed...

And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

But wilt thou know, O vain (foolish) man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)

how many are needed?

 

[patrick jane]

how many are needed?

:rotfl:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:rotfl:

Yep, it's a question that works salvationists will never answer.
If works salvation is true, we need to know how many is acceptable to pass.

 

[jamie]

Yep, it's a question that works salvationists will never answer.
If works salvation is true, we need to know how many is acceptable to pass.

That's because according to Paul works before salvation are irrelevant.

However, Paul taught that the purpose of salvation is for works.

The phrase "works salvation" is an oxymoron. No such thing.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The phrase "works salvation" is an oxymoron. No such thing.

I disagree.

 

[Danoh]

how many are needed?

"...two for the show; one for the road" :chuckle:

Rom. 5:8

 

[jamie]

I disagree.

What scripture supports works salvation?

Why do you believe works produce salvation?

That's not what Paul taught.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What scripture supports works salvation?

Why do you believe works produce salvation?

That's not what Paul taught.

:chuckle:

I don't.

Some people do, and they will never tell us how much work is needed to get or stay saved.

 

[Tambora]

Grace has nothing to do with works.


Romans 11:6 KJV
(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Romans 4:4-6 KJV
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[Tambora]

Galatians 3 KJV
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Tambora]

Galatians 2 KJV
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[Fisherofmen]

how many are needed?

And why would God give a number? Would you stop doing good works at that point? What kind of person demands a number from God? No man is assured of salvation while he is on this earth. St. Paul says...

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. (Phil. 2:12)

For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:4)

Are you working out your salvation?

Charge the rich of this world not to be highminded, nor to trust in the uncertainty of riches, but in the living God, (who giveth us abundantly all things to enjoy,) [18] To do good, to be rich in good works, to give easily, to communicate to others, [19] To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life. (1 Tim. 6:17-19)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.(Mat. 16:27)

But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. (Rom. 2:5-6)

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Cor 11:15)

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15)

FAITH ALONE IS HERESY. GRACE, FAITH AND GOOD WORKS (NOT WORKS OF THE MOSAIC LAW) ARE ALL NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Grace has nothing to do with works.

So you are saying without God's grace you can do good salvific works?

Romans 11:6 KJV
(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, without faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favor, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation. It is not the same with regard to works done with, and by, God's grace; for to such works as these, he has promised eternal salvation.

Romans 4:4-6 KJV
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

"Works" by his own strength. Such a man, says the apostle, challenges his reward as a debt due to his own performances; whereas he who works not, that is, who presumes not upon any works done by his own strength, but seeks justice through faith and grace, is freely justified by God's grace.

Therefore when it comes to salvation, God's grace has everything to do with works. Grace, faith and good works (not works of the Mosaic Law) are all needed for salvation.

 

[Tambora]

So you are saying without God's grace you can do good salvific works?

None of your works save you.

Only the obedience and righteousness of one saves you.


Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



HINT: That one ain't you.
So stop trying to change scripture by saying it is by the righteousness and obedience of two, instead of just one.

 

[SabathMoon]

Yep, it's a question that works salvationists will never answer.
If works salvation is true, we need to know how many is acceptable to pass.

Salvation has very little to with the afterlife, and has more to do with life rafts and rescues.

 

[SabathMoon]

Yep, it's a question that works salvationists will never answer.
If works salvation is true, we need to know how many is acceptable to pass.

Or how about this question? Or you safe even you are still dying. I don't feel safer, though I may not be in the danger of total oblivion. I like my none are truly saved yet idea.