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The Calvinist "doctrine of election" is hogwash invented in an evil mind.
In the BIBLE, there are several different types of election and none of them match the Calvinist hogwash.
On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
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In the BIBLE, there are several different types of election and none of them match the Calvinist hogwash.
Bladerunner
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yet until the fall of Adam, there was no evil in Eden...Yet after the fall.....It states that : "and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" From this point we can surmise that death and sin was a curse upon mankind........"upon all men; All have sinned" The passage does NOT READ 'Death passed upon all men who have sinned'.......Use your noggin a little.
Bladerunner
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It is obvious that we are at odds as far as correct reading and interpretation......Rem. this and it is straight to the point.....ONLY GOD KNOWS!
Bladerunner
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Here let me give you the majority of scripture for each point..
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This verse is about an "elect" called the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isa 42:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(42:1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Bladerunner
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you saying Jesus Christ is the elect in this verse?
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Are you really that dense?
@Clete
I apologize for the delayed response. I have been going through some changes over the last week and in the process I lost my login information.
You may (or may not) be happy to know that I am no longer a Calvinist. I may create a thread to explain how exactly that happened.
Long story short, I no longer believe that finite men can explain an infinite God by creating a systematic theology. With God, it’s not as simple as 2 + 2 = 4. God is beyond any mathematical equation we can try to narrow Him down to, therefore I now reject it.
I apologize for the delayed response. I have been going through some changes over the last week and in the process I lost my login information.
You may (or may not) be happy to know that I am no longer a Calvinist. I may create a thread to explain how exactly that happened.
Long story short, I no longer believe that finite men can explain an infinite God by creating a systematic theology. With God, it’s not as simple as 2 + 2 = 4. God is beyond any mathematical equation we can try to narrow Him down to, therefore I now reject it.
Bladerunner
Active member
really, is that the best you can do..rewrite it to make it more understandable.
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It was as clear as can be.
If you can't understand the obvious, that's on you.
No thank you, I feel like I have been brainwashed and no longer wish to participate in theological discussions. I will go back to studying on my own and coming to my own conclusions. Do whatever needs to be done with these accounts. Thank you and God Bless.
In Calvinist theology, the doctrine of election asserts that, before the creation of the world, God sovereignly and unconditionally chose certain individuals for salvation. This selection is not based on any foreseen merit, faith, or action on the part of the chosen, but solely on God's mercy and divine will. Those whom God has elected will inevitably come to faith in Christ and attain salvation, as God's grace to the elect is both irresistible and effective. This doctrine underscores God's absolute sovereignty in the process of salvation and is a central tenet of Calvinist soteriology.
Those aren't my words. They happen to be a quote from Wikipedia and it is quite accurate. However, people, especially intellectually dishonest people like yourself, find any association of something with Wikipedia as a good reason to dismiss it whether it happens to accurate or not, therefore I have gone through the trouble of getting the doctrine from the proverbial horse's mouths, including from both prominent Calvinists and from source document....
In Calvinist theology, the doctrine of election, specifically termed "unconditional election," asserts that God, by His sovereign will and without any foreseen merit or action on the part of individuals, has chosen certain people for salvation. This choice is not based on human actions or decisions but solely on God's mercy and purpose. As articulated by theologian R.C. Sproul, "God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save." - Ligonier Ministries
"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race...a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ." - Canons of Dort
"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death" (WCF 3.3).
"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid...hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works" (WCF 3.5).
“Election is the cause of good works, and not the reverse.” - (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Section 1)
“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He willed to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.” - (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5)
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
Now, that is my understanding of the doctrine of election. More precisely, it IS the doctrine of election. The degree to which you disagree with it, is the degree to which you disagree with one of the most important tenets of Calvinism. I doubt very much that you could even rightly call yourself a Calvinist at all if you disagree with what is posted above.
Well, I have no idea whether you'll see this post or not but the single thing that I would leave you with is this...
First of all, you've taken an important first step in your rejection of Calvinism. It is flagrantly irrational, not to mention unbiblical. I would however caution you against over reacting and concluding that because Calvinism turned out to be false that no understanding of God is possible at all.
Attempting to FULLY understand God is a false and foolish goal. He far transcends His creation. That, however, does not mean that He cannot be understood at all. Quite the contrary. We were created by Him for the purpose of having a relationship with Him. It would therefore be equally foolish to throw up one's hands and, in exasperation, declare God to be beyond any understanding. Just because we are finite doesn't mean we are stupid or that God failed to create us with the ability to have a meaningful relationship with Him. In actual fact, we are not as finite as the Calvinists would have you believe. Our existence, once begun will not ever end. The bible tells us that God has put infinity into our hearts and our length of days will indeed approach infinity. There is, in fact, a verse of scripture that concisely says what this wordy paragraph attempts to communicate...
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
One thing, in particular, that you need to grab hold of and cling to no matter what....
There is no such thing as an irrational truth!
Indeed, to be irrational is what it means for something to be false. Therefore, any doctrine you find that teaches something that is self-contradictory or that contradicts some other known truth can and should be confidently rejected on that basis alone.
Why?
Because God is Truth - capital T. Meaning that He is the very embodiment of truth itself. John calls God the Son, the Logos (John 1). The Greek word "logos" conveys the same means as the English word "reason" as in "a proper process of thought" or "correct use of logic". Notice the similarity between the Greek word "logos" and the English word "logic". That isn't coincidental.
Also, God has given us a rather thick book by which He communicates to us, not only that He exists but who He is, what sort of person He is, what He likes and what He doesn't like, what sort of person He wants us to be and what sort of person He calls a friend. From both God's word and from simple reason, we can know with certainty that God is living, personal, rational, relational, loving and righteous. These aren't the only attributes of God but they are the foundational attributes of God. I say that because these are the qualitative attributes of God. The quantitative attributes are things that have to do with how much power God has, how big He is and how much God knows, etc. The bible itself teaches us that God's righteousness (i.e. the quality of His character) is the foundation of His authority.
- Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
- Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
So to sum this up I would urge you to do the following two things...
- Start from the premise that God is living, personal, rational, relational, loving and righteous. (i.e. things like kindness and justice are included in those by extension).
- ALL doctrine must be BOTH biblical AND rational.
@Sherman - Maybe you could send this post to him via email. Is that permitted? I really want him to see it!
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That flat out is NOT what the passage says! Sin is not the curse, sin is the cause of the curse!
A curse, by the way, which has been undone!
Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
In other words, your doctrine here would only be correct if the innocent Jesus hadn't willingly offered up His own life as a means to rectify the very problem that you are attempt to suggest hasn't been rectified!
I'm telling you, there will not be one single person anywhere who finds himself in Hell because of Adam's sin, except perhaps Adam (i.e. I expect to see Adam in Heaven but I don't actually know anything about Adam's relationship with God at the time of his death).
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
God is just!Therefore, Calvinism is false!
Well, yeah! It basically does! The verse explicitly states "BECAUSE all sinned".
Where's the hostility coming from? I haven't insulted you at all and have done nothing but respond directly to the points you have made with clear arguments. Arguments that you have mostly ignored or blown off as though I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. If either of us has a reason to be offended here it's me. Not that I'm surprised by your conduct. Calvinists are all clowns who, if brains were dynamite, wouldn't have enough to blow the fuzz off a peach.
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