Don't need to. Scripture is its own proof whether an Open Theist likes it or not.
Word's right out of the mouth of the likes of David Koresh, Benny Hinn, and Yahweh Ben Yahweh.
If you don't need to proof text then stop doing it.
Most Christians give me a hard time for even talking to you guys.
Lon, if you lie to me again, I will simply put you on ignore and you can go tell all your make-believe friends that "give you a hard time" that there's one fewer Open Theists that you have to deal with.
Scripture ALONE for the win! Not your or anybody else's 'want this to be true.' Colossians 1:15-20. You are CLEARLY wrong. Let "me" say 'everything everything everything' again. Do you want it to exclude 'sin?' Sin is not a 'thing' to be created. Sorry, you lose again. Sorry any OT following along. "Wrong." Try again or learn to argue better out of a paper bag.
This is called moving the goal post. It is a form of lie.
Why is it that people who believe obviously false doctrines always have to find some way to squirm their way into a way to preserve their beliefs when they've been caught in an obvious error?
There wasn't anyway that you were saying anything as obvious as that God created every ontological thing in Heaven and Earth. Such a comment wouldn't have fit in the context of the discussion which was about your ridiculous and openly self-proclaimed belief in panentheism which goes well beyond anything the bible teaches in Colossians or anywhere else.
Um, "I" said this. You are a parrot, Clete. Learn to actually think. I double-dare you. You simply don't have the intelligence. I'll take Judge Rightly at this point. He at least has a brain for this. All the pos rep 'attaboys' in the world are NOT signs of intelligence, in fact just the opposite: brainwashing and flocking mentality.
You are flatly a liar, Lon.
The whole conversation is still right here for the whole world to read. I responded directly to your own words in the explicit context in which they were stated.
Wrong. It is 'why' I disdain your cognitive ability. You simply play off of brainwashed canards, yourself.
No, it was a lie and so was this. You flatly know better than to think that I cannot defend what I believe. I've been doing it for decades right here on TOL. I wasn't even hardly trying and I've sent you into hysterics here. You literally lose your grip before making it through two iterations of someone challenging you to defend your lunatic pseudo-christian doctrines.
The reality is that you're no different than any other typical "pastor" or "preacher" or whatever it is you call yourself. You're emotional and are deeply emotionally entrenched and cannot afford to seriously consider anything other than what you've been taught to teach others. You wouldn't know where to start if it ever occurred to you to do a objective critique of your current beliefs and when someone shows up who isn't going to let you off the hook unless and until you prove your claims, your response is to shut down and find any reason you can to dismiss, belittle and "disdain" your opponent's "cognitive ability".
What a joke you are.
Posturing, absurdly, as ever. You are NOBODY to ever assert anything.
You're projecting. The only one posturing here is you. My statements were not only true but were stated without undo emotion and were directly responsive to your claims. I have, in fact, debated DOZENS of Calvinist and your claims do not fit with my decades of direct first hand experience. Calvinists DO NOT believe that God is capable of any sort of change whatsoever - period. The incarnation does NOTHING to persuade them otherwise. If you think you've found otherwise, then you are either lying about it or you aren't looking hard enough.
You just don't think that well. In fact, I have to call any open theist on the table for giving pos reps, for their ability to reason, at this point (Sorry, RD, you are in fact, most of the time, better than this).
Then prove me wrong, Lon!
That's all you have to do! Just make an argument that shows that we've got it wrong! Just one argument! Can you make even one single argument that demonstrates the stupidity of all Open Theists?
NOPE!
Not only can you not make any such argument, you won't even make any attempt to do so.
"Same yesterday, today, and forever. "YOU need to work on this better. You just aren't thinking beyond Open assumptions.
That's my line!
You are basically claiming that I have paradigm blindness here. The problem for you is that I used to be within YOUR paradigm and I know why, precisely why, my paradigm is superior to yours. Not only that but am ready, willing and able to debate exactly that!
Further, they aren't assumptions! That's just the exact point here! It's your doctrines that are based on assumptions. Assumptions, most especially, about who God is, by the way.
Hebrews 13:8 simply does not say anything about either God being immutable or existence outside of time. If you think otherwise, there is something other than the verse itself that is coloring your understanding. That something else is your doctrine, which, in large measure, you believe, not because the bible actually teaches it but because your teacher taught you to believe it. You then bring that doctrine to the reading of scripture in an a-priori fashion and somehow think that your doing so counts as some sort of refutation of Open Theism.
They will ALWAYS keep you from thinking well, as you cling to them without critical ability.
Prove it, Lon!
If I'm so stupid; if I'm so deluted; if I'm so laughably, disdainably wrong headed, then show us all where my error is!
Which "assumption" do I have wrong
and why?
YOU WILL NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION NO MATTER WHO ASKS YOU OR HOW MANY TIMES YOU'RE ASKED!
If someone asked me, or any other Open Theist, a question like that, we would instantly dive into the deepest theological water anyone wanted to swim in. Open theists desire nothing more than to not only prove what we believe but to disprove those who have it wrong.
You are simply posturing, as you ever do, Clete.
Liar. This is just so transparently a lie. You KNEW that this was false when you typed it.
It isn't posturing, its the truth! The bible does not say ANYTHING about God being immutable nor about Him existing outside of time. In fact, the biblical evidence consistently and unanimously shows God's existence in time!
It has nothing to do with posturing. I can't even understand what you could mean by calling it posturing. What's "posturing" about making the claim that the bible does not teach that God is immutable? That's a perfectly clear statement that is entirely consistent with what I've believed and argued on this website for something close to twenty years.
It is NOT a sign of intelligence. It is a sign of indoctrination and an inability to actually think critically.
Well then it should be easy for you to demonstrate the error I've made.
Show me, Lon! If you can!
You won't even try.
It is 2 dimensional and short of actual dialogue.
Another lie. My statements were and have consistently been in direct response to what you yourself said. It's all right there as clear as day for the entire world to read.
I never see you as actually being 'able' to address pertinent discussion.
Your pants are surely on fire, Lon!
And yes, I intend to point out every single time when you've stated an intentional lie. You are the one being unresponsive - more than a week after I actually wrote the post to boot.
The only reason you get reps is simply because you are versed, 2 dimensionally, in Open doctrine.
No, that isn't the only reason and I am versed in much more than just Open doctrine. I didn't grow up as a Open Theist and I've defended Open Theism against people that make you look like a thumb sucking retard and have had very long term substantive exchanges that you wouldn't be capable of on your best day.
Maybe no other Open Theist is capable of seeing it, that give you pos-rep, but honestly? There are millions of us who are not Open and we think very well, thank you.
Well, then if we're so dumb then it should be a simple matter for you to win at least one debate against an open theist, right?!
I volunteer! I'll suspend your being put on ignore long enough for you to accept or reject my offer to debate you on ANY topic related to Open Theism that you choose. By your own standard, I should be your ideal opposition. My cognitive abilities are apparently so poor as to be rightly disdained, right? So let's just see! You pick whatever aspect of Open Theism you want and then proceed to show the world just how stupid I actually am!
You wouldn't do it for all the tea in China!
Er, no. Nice try, as it is for every Open Theist conference assertion. It is, again, a tired canard to the rest of us.
Really?! Are you sure?
This is perhaps a little posturing here on your part I think!
If its nothing more than a "tired canard" then why don't you EVER do something more substantive than calling it names? If there's nothing to the claim then why don't you show us all what the real history of these doctrines is?
The fact is that there is exactly ZERO historical evidence of ANY Christian doctrine resembling immutability, timelessness or any other Calvinistic distinctive doctrine prior to the writings of Augustine of Hippo who stated in his own writings that he rejected his mother's faith (Christianity) because it taught that God could change His mind and he refused to become a Christian until his mother's bishop, Bishop Ambrose, explained to him that the bible was to be interpreted in the light of the classics. Augustine would later state that God and His word are “everywhere implied” in the writings of the Platonists.
In short, there is a very clear and direct historical line drawn from Plato to Augustine to Calvin (not to mention much of Catholicism). Call it a canard if you like but to deny that this history exists is either ignorance or an intentional lie.
Open Theism is barely a pip concerning Christian theology.
Appeal to popularity fallacy.
It is outright rejected for very good 'intelligent' reasons.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Lon.
"Good "intelligent" reasons"?
Like what, Lon?
Can you show me just one of these "good "intelligent" reasons"?
NOPE! You can't and won't even try to make one up.
You can 'assert' all you like, but you Open Theists really have to learn to think beyond the small-attended conferences and back-pats.
You are the one making assertions, Lon. I'm the one here practically begging you to show the world how stupid I must surely be by presenting an actual argument that shows how dumb the whole Open Theist world is.
Perhaps God predestined that you'll never do it.
It rings 'cultish' and myopic, rather than intelligent dialogue and thinking.
Oh! Another lie.
There isn't anything about Open Theism that is the least bit cultish. Cults never want you to question any of their doctrines. Open Theism is practically defined by the desire for people to question, debate, prove and establish anything and everything that they say. This website was created by an open theist, it is owned by and run by open theists and it's explicit purpose for existing is to debate any doctrine in general and Open Theism in particular.
I'm being bolder here, but you guys really need to hear what I'm hearing from the rest of Christianity:
As if you have a bead on "the rest of Christianity" and as if we'd care even if you did!
They don't even care enough to correct you, they've told me often to leave this forum and leave you to your own devices specifically because of the purposeful delusion and inability to see what the rest of Christianity is trying to tell you.
If right doctrine was a matter of popular opinion then we'd all be Catholic! How many Catholics (or any other sect of Christianity for that matter) care to correct the Christian lunatics that believe in panentheism, Lon?
Has any of your clearly vast Christian contacts that spread like so many tree roots deep into the Christian psyche ever give you any actual arguments against Open Theism? Maybe you could ask the whole of Christianity for a good argument to present against this posturing, cognitively impaired, open theist imbecile.
I'll not likely get any 'pos reps' for this, but I don't care about that.
If you didn't care, you'd wouldn't have mentioned it. I suspect kudos from those around you is the driving force of your life. It's what gets you out of bed in the morning.
I care, at least once in awhile, that you guys think this badly!
This is getting rather repetitive but its worth it....
If we're such bad thinkers then why not prove it, Lon! Make ANY argument you want to make! That's what we're all here for! That's why TOL exists! Make an argument, Lon! I dare you!
You WILL NOT do it because you CAN NOT do it. The fact is that you are everything you've claimed me to be and you're a liar to to boot.
Clete
kgov.com
(you could have posted some of his worse posturing, it all shows his own soul and mouth, thanks for at least sparing me that).