On the omniscience of God

[glorydaz]

Time isn't a "thing."

It's a concept. It's a convention of language.



No.



Post 382.

God doesn't agree.

Genesis 18:14
Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

 

[Arial]

I see you have learned nothing about respecting others. Try lumping those things together which can be when you post to me or I will simply stop caring about or reading your posts. There is no need to make a comment of every single sentence, which byw breaks it off from its context anyway. Quite often you break sentences into two or three parts and cover the parts separately. And most of the time what you offer is unsupported and unbiblical.

I know very well what it says. It says nothing about time being created. It says the heavens, the earth, and light, were created on the first day.

It says nothing at all about time being created.

God called the light day, and the darkness night. And there was evening, and there was morning---the first day. Etc. What do you think that is? It is God creating what He did as He did the result being time. Our world is in time----and space.

Through reason.

You cannot create something that requires itself to be created.

Thus, "before time" is an oxymoron.

Check your reasoning then. Time is an outflowing of God's work in preparing the earth for life. Including human life. Not only do you try to reason who God is with a finite mind but you also try to philosophize it. And to remark on what you say later in this post that I need to repent because I am making God and His word a liar, (get off your flimsy throne, no one is bowing down to you) maybe you shouldn't try and put the Almighty in a box that fits inside your mind.

Again, "time" isn't an object. It cannot be created. Therefore, God did not create it, and thus, it isn't included in "everything God created," by definition.

Again with the logic approach to faith. Faith contingent upon your idea of what is logical. We have time, we live within the bounds of time, as does all the earth and everything in it-----because God designed it that way.

If you're going to reference scripture and use it as your argument, you need to at least reference it.

I have yet to see your verify a single thing you posit here with scripture. And I have no intention of quoting you 75% of the Bible. You claim to have read it, and I believe you probably have. But you must have misunderstood a great deal of it to begin putting perimeters around Him that you deem arrive out of deep and intelligent thought, far superior to just listening to and believing God. Here is a good Place to start: "In the beginning God----" There is no beginning and no end with God (oh outside of time), so when He says beginning there as how He begins revealing Himself in scripture, that very word, puts us within time. And somebody in time as you say He is, could not create (establish if create is too hard to grapple with) time.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Sorry, but that says nothing about time.

No, I wasn't specifically thinking of that scripture though it does show us that It is God holding all of it together, this world we live in that has a morning and an evening every single day of the week of the month of the year. And that someone has to hold it together this place that operates within time. Could someone inside time do that, or would they have to be outside of it? Do you think God stood on Earth when He created it or created all that was in it? Nope. He had to be outside of it.

Again, we don't live in the past, we don't think in the past, and we don't move in the past.

Since you just can't help but be persnikety I'll try it this way. We did live in the past, which was the present when we were there. We will live in the future which will be the present whe we are there. However we think about the past and the future. God sees it all. Our past. Our present. Our future. Time is nothing to God, but it is to us.

I could make a comment on your mental health here as a result of that,.

I would expect nothing less from you than to take whatever perceived opportunity you see to slander and insult and degrade and defame another person. But you do realize even though you said you wouldn't, you just did right? Are you proud of yourself?

That's what you did, regardless of your intent.

I magically made something exist?

An argument from repetition is a logical fallacy.

That is what people say when they really don't have any ground to stand on. Is that sand under your feet? It appears to be your favorite expression, so I guess you think if makes you seem like an intellectual or that you always know what you are talking about (always right and better)----but it doesn't. A great majority of posters on every forum I have been on, trot it out like a talking point.

The Bible shows God as in time, always.

It never shows Him outside of time.

It shows Him operating and doing things within a time frames when it comes to dealing with humanity (as opposed to always) because duh, that is where we are. It shows that He is outside of time, but it can't actually show us visually or even communicate the how and way of it outside of time because guess what? We are unable to see outside of time!!!

I changed my mind about reading and responding to the rest of your post from which this has been condensed. I find it really a waste of everyone's time, with possibly the exception of yours. Evidently you get a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction out of this sort of thing, but though I quickly and shamefully stoop to your level----I know better and I hate it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Seriously time isn’t a thing?

It's a convention of language. It doesn't exist, like a car, wallet, or computer does. It's how we describe sequence.

Well there is no debating with anyone who shifts what God created into a concept.

More begging the question.

You have yet to establish that God created time.

By that reasoning one would have to believe invisible (which time is) and visible are also not things but just concepts,

Again, this is begging the question that time is a thing that was created.

"Things invisible"... like air, gravity, magnetic forces, electrons...

Time? Not so much.

and yet scripture says all things were created by God.

Which I didn't disagree with.

Nice dodge and work around of scripture though.

Again, post #382 is where I have given you scripture to back up my arguments.

If you're not going to read/respond to it, then you cannot say that am dodging or working around scripture.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is not a verse limiting God.

It is. God is describing what he will do in those circumstances.

God doesn't agree.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Genesis 18:14
Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

"A convention of language used to convey information about the sequence and duration of events relative to other events."

"Time of life" here is a figure of speech which means a woman's menstrual cycle.

 

[glorydaz]

My goodness. Begging the question.....why?

 

[glorydaz]

It is. God is describing what he will do in those circumstances.

You claimed it was a verse "that supports a limited Almighty God." Just plain silly.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

That's a very lazy response, but it seems to be quite popular. lol

 

[glorydaz]

"A convention of language used to convey information about the sequence and duration of events relative to other events."

"Time of life" here is a figure of speech which means a woman's menstrual cycle.

The "time appointed" was not referring to a woman's menstrual cycle. You're reaching, JR.

 

[Leatherneck]

It's a convention of language. It doesn't exist, like a car, wallet, or computer does. It's how we describe sequence.



More begging the question.

You have yet to establish that God created time.



Again, this is begging the question that time is a thing that was created.

"Things invisible"... like air, gravity, magnetic forces, electrons...

Time? Not so much.



Which I didn't disagree with.



Again, post #382 is where I have given you scripture to back up my arguments.

If you're not going to read/respond to it, then you cannot say that am dodging or working around scripture.

And you have not proven from scripture that God did not create time, which is nothing more than your opinion. Scripture says God created all things and by Him all things consist. I have proven by scripture that God created time, but you cannot see nor receive that truth, sadly.

 

[Arial]

That's a very lazy response, but it seems to be quite popular. lol

That, and logical fallacy and begging the question.

 

[glorydaz]

And you have not proven from scripture that God did not create time, which is nothing more than your opinion. Scripture says God created all things and by Him all things consist. I have proven by scripture that God created time, but you cannot see nor receive that truth, sadly.

Indeed, God created everything. We see time being created right here.

Gen. 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

 

[glorydaz]

That, and logical fallacy and begging the question.

Makes you just want to jump right in and play, doesn't it?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I see you have learned nothing about respecting others.

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Try lumping those things together which can be when you post to me or I will simply stop caring about or reading your posts.

You're free to do as you wish.

There is no need to make a comment of every single sentence, which btw breaks it off from its context anyway.

If you think that what I have said does that, then point it out to me, and show me how keeping it with other things you've said should change my response.

Quite often

Indeed.

you break sentences into two or three parts and cover the parts separately.

Because

And most of the time what you offer is unsupported and unbiblical.

And yet, I'm pretty sure I've posted the most scripture so far in this thread, in support of my arguments.

God called the light day, and the darkness night. And there was evening, and there was morning---the first day. Etc. What do you think that is? It is God creating what He did as He did the result being time.

Wrong.

It's simply the first rotation of the earth completed.

Don't confuse clocks with time itself.

Our world is in time----and space.

Space, yes.

Again, "time" doesn't exist, except as a convention of language.

Check your reasoning then. Time is an outflowing of God's work in preparing the earth for life.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Including human life. Not only do you try to reason who God is with a finite mind but you also try to philosophize it. And to remark on what you say later in this post that I need to repent because I am making God and His word a liar, (get off your flimsy throne, no one is bowing down to you) maybe you shouldn't try and put the Almighty in a box that fits inside your mind.

You said:

That a Christian would know their Bible better than to not know that God is outside of time. I will give you a couple of examples where it is obvious otherwise the scriptures would be lying. Eph 4:6; Eph 1:20-21; Acts 7:49; Ps 148:13.

You were wrong (there were no instances in any of those passages that show that God is outside of time, and therefore your assertion implies that scripture must be then be wrong), therefore you bore false witness against God's word.

Repent. Ask God for wisdom.

Again with the logic approach to faith.

Now you're arguing against logic itself.

You are, by definition, irrational.

Here is what SCRIPTURE says:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is based on reason. We have a reason to have faith.

Otherwise, your faith is in vain.

Faith contingent upon your idea of what is logical.

What is logical has nothing to do with my opinion. It is, by definition, objective.

"Now faith is . . . evidence..."

We have time,

We have a convention of language that allows us to describe sequence.

Time isn't an actual "thing."

we live within the bounds of time,

We live within reality.

Time is a construct we use to describe sequence.

as does all the earth and everything in it-----because God designed it that way.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I have yet to see your verify a single thing you posit here with scripture.

Someone's not reading the thread thoroughly. Multiple times I have directed you and Leatherneck to previous posts in this thread where I verify what I say with scripture.

It's not my problem that you refuse to read them.

And I have no intention of quoting you 75% of the Bible. You claim to have read it, and I believe you probably have. But you must have misunderstood a great deal of it to begin putting perimeters around Him that you deem arrive out of deep and intelligent thought, far superior to just listening to and believing God.

In what way am I "putting perimeters around Him"?

Here is a good Place to start: "In the beginning God----"

Yes, in the beginning of the creation (noun, not verb), God created.

God did things BEFORE the creation. Scripture says so. I have provided verses previously (and the entire thread is still here for you to read it) that show exactly that.

There is no beginning and no end with God

Saying it doesn't make it so.

(oh outside of time), so when He says beginning there as how He begins revealing Himself in scripture, that very word, puts us within time. And somebody in time as you say He is, could not create (establish if create is too hard to grapple with) time.

Not just us. Him too.

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. | Open Theism

opentheism.org

No, I wasn't specifically thinking of that scripture

I'm not going to play guessing games with you. If you aren't going to reference the verse, then I'm not going to bother responding to your claims.

PROVE. IT.

though it does show us that It is God holding all of it together, this world we live in that has a morning and an evening every single day of the week of the month of the year.

Revelation 1:4
"Him who is and who was and who is to come"

Revelation 1:8
"“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”"

:think:

And that someone has to hold it together this place that operates within time.

Begging the question.

Could someone inside time do that, or would they have to be outside of it? Do you think God stood on Earth when He created it or created all that was in it? Nope. He had to be outside of it.

Now your argument is contradicting itself. Was God always creating? or did God exist, then decided to create, then planned out the creation, then created?

Since you just can't help but be persnikety I'll try it this way. We did live in the past, which was the present when we were there. We will live in the future which will be the present whe we are there.

No, we don't live in the future.

If you think you do, you may be mentally ill.

However we think about the past and the future.

God remembers the past and looks forward to the future.

4 - God Acts Externally in Sequence showing that He is not outside of but in time (and see also just below, sequence within the Godhead). In actions: "But this Man [God the Son], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies" are subdued Heb. 10:12-13; prior to this, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God" Ps. 90:2; God then first created and then ceased from His creative work Gen. 2:1-3; later God waited while the ark was being prepared 1 Peter 3:20; God has not pre-determined everything He will do but He says that when certain things happen, then He determines what He will do next, by saying "I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me" Zech. 8:14; and likewise see Jer. 26:3 and "If you will not listen to Me... then I will make this... city a curse" Jer. 26:4, 6"; "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; God speaks in heaven 1 Kings 22:20 and from heaven Mat. 3:17; 17:5; Speaking requires sequence which is why Augustine claimed that God could not speak because Augustine, sadly, had been convinced of divine atemporality by Plato so he denied that God could have said this, "Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' " Mark 1:11; "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased' " Luke 3:22; and Augustine claims that God could not and did not utter those words even though they are self-evidently from the Father and even though the Apostle Peter explicitly attributes them to God 2 Peter 1:17; God was manifested in the flesh and (then after His death for Man's sin) justified by the Holy Spirit 1 Tim. 3:16; God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin saying, "It is finished!" John 19:30; He suffered, was killed, buried, and raised the third day Mat. 12:40; 16:21; 17:23; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; Acts 4:10; Rom. 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:4; regarding the old and new covenants He took "away the first that He may establish the second" Heb. 10:9; Jesus rose and then sought His disciples Mat. 26:32; Mark 14:28; John 21:14; God the Son went from not having a body John 4:24, to indwelling a form Gen. 3:8; 18:1-3; etc., to taking on a human body Luke 1:31, to having a "glorious body" Phil. 3:21; and God the Son "passed through the heavens" Heb. 4:14, whatever that means, to get from Earth to the Father's throne room; "but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" Heb. 9:26; "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" Heb. 9:28. In remembering and looking forward: God remembers as when He remembered His covenant with Abraham Ex. 2:24; and with Jacob Lev. 26:42; and His holy promise to the Israelites Ps. 105:42; etc.; Cornelius (the Gentile saved before baptism and apart from circumcision) had his alms remembered by God Acts 10:31; and God will remember Babylon's sins Rev. 16:19 and their iniquities Rev. 18:5; See also Gen 9:12-15; Ps. 136:23; Mal. 3:16; etc. (Also, when theologians say that God "enters" into time, what they're actually referring to is when God interacts with His creation. So as seen throughout Genesis to Revelation, even the common theological way of speaking admits that God acts in sequence, as there is a before He "enters" time and an after.) Jesus, who is God the Son, looked forward to the future time when His apostles would sit on twelve thrones and when He would sit on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; the Holy Spirit cannot act in someone's life until that person exists, so, significantly, the Scripture says to believers, "the Spirit of God dwells in you" 1 Cor. 3:16, something He could not do until you exist; "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" Acts 1:8; "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you" John 14:26; "I tell you the truth... if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin" John 16:7-8; "when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you" John 16:13; "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit" Eph. 1:13; etc.; "My Father... is One who seeks" John 8:49-50; "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; He held the righteous dead in "Abraham's Bosom" awaiting Christ's death, figuratively, with Abraham's Bosom as the Cities of Refuge, "until the death of the one who would be high priest in those days" Joshua 20:6; and literally, and symbolic of the entire group, upon Christ's death many graves were opened and the saints who had died were raised Mat. 27:52; at which time the deceased saints could finally then enter into heaven; also all "the days are coming" passages, like Amos 9:13-14; Mal. 3:17; etc. Et cetera: [Mark 2:8]; And see the closely related verses above showing that God having duration exists in time and below that time exists in heaven.

God sees it all.

Chapter, verse.

Our past. Our present. Our future. Time is nothing to God, but it is to us.

Chapter, verse.

I would expect nothing less from you than to take whatever perceived opportunity you see to slander and insult and degrade and defame another person. But you do realize even though you said you wouldn't, you just did right? Are you proud of yourself?

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

I magically made something exist?

If you're confused about the flow of the conversation, I recommend going back and reading the thread again.

That is what people say when they really don't have any ground to stand on.

I'll let the thread speak for itself.

Is that sand under your feet? It appears to be your favorite expression, so I guess you think if makes you seem like an intellectual or that you always know what you are talking about (always right and better)----but it doesn't. A great majority of posters on every forum I have been on trot it out like a talking point.

Do you have a point to make?

It shows Him operating and doing things within a time frames when it comes to dealing with humanity (as opposed to always) because duh, that is where we are. It shows that He is outside of time, but it can't actually show us visually or even communicate the how and way of it outside of time because guess what? We are unable to see outside of time!!!

It shows us that, but can't actually show us or communicate it?

Yeah, that's real rational...

Not.

Scripture on the other hand:

2 - God Exists in Time through duration contrary to the opposing claim of Plato and Augustine. Speaking of Jesus Christ, "this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool" Heb. 10:12-13, and see the related passages Ps. 110:1; Mat. 22:44; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Heb. 1:13; Jesus said, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; and of God the Son, "the Word became flesh" John 1:14; etc.; God gets weary of repenting Jer. 15:6; He asks "how long" shall I bear with an evil people Num. 14:27; "Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you... Blessed are all those who wait for Him" Isa. 30:18; God existing outside of time would invalidate one of the Lord's most wonderful arguments "concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken" Mark 12:26-27 and Jesus argument is not unsound, which it would be if God existed outside of time, for then Abraham would be alive to God eternally even if there were no life after death; and the Burning Bush passage itself therefore shows God in time Ex. 3:6; and with God in time, of course, so the rest of the spiritual realm exists in time Mat. 8:29; Scripture never describes God as atemporal, timeless, having no past or future, or outside of time; the Bible frequently though describes Him as in duration including "God who is - and was - and is to come... says the Lord, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' " Rev. 1:4, 8; "whose goings forth are from of old" Mic. 5:2; "before all [created] things" Col. 1:17; "forever and ever" Ex. 15:18; 1 Chr. 29:10; Ps. 10:16; 45:6; 48:14; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 4:9-10; 5:14; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; "the Ancient of Days" Dan. 7:9; 7:13; 7:22; in the Greek, from before the ages of the ages 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; "from ancient times" Isa. 46:10; "the everlasting God" Gen. 21:33; Isa. 40:28; Rom. 16:26; [Deut. 33:27]; "He continues forever" Heb. 7:24; "from of old" Ps. 25:6; 55:19; 93:2; Isa. 57:11; "from everlasting" Ps. 93:2; Micah 5:2; "remains forever" John 12:34; has "everlasting dominion" Dan. 4:34; "abides" 1 John 2:17; "eternal" Rom. 1:20; 2 Cor. 4:18; 1 Tim. 1:17; Heb. 9:14; 1 John 5:11; Immortal 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; "the Lord shall endure forever" Ps. 9:7; who "lives forever" Dan. 4:34; 12:7; Rev. 4:9-10; 5:14; 10:6; 15:7; "yesterday, today, and forever" Heb. 13:8; "His years" are without number Job 36:26; "rock of ages" / "everlasting strength" Isa. 26:9; "manifest in His own time" 1 Tim. 6:15; "everlasting Father" Isa. 9:6; "alive forevermore" Rev. 1:18; "always lives" Heb. 7:25; "forever" Ps. 110:4; 146:10; Dan. 6:26; Rom. 16:27; 2 Cor. 9:9; Heb. 1:8; 7:21; 24; 28; 1 John 2:17; Jude 1:25; Rev. 1:6; "continually" Ps.40:11; 52:1; Luke 1:33; Heb. 7:3; "the eternal God" Deut. 33:27; God’s "years will have no end" Ps. 102:27; "from everlasting to everlasting" 1 Chr. 16:36; Ps. 41:13; 90:2; 106:48; "from that time forward, even forever" Isa. 9:7; so "when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman" Gal. 4:4; then, not us, but God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin when He said, "It is finished!" John 19:30; "He will reign... and of His kingdom there will be no end" Luke 1:33; etc. And see the closely related verses of Category 3 and of Category 4 showing that God acts in sequence and also of Category 28 that time exists in heaven. 3 - God has Qualities that can Only be had if He Exists in Time like patience, slow to anger, and hope. Patience: 1 Peter 3:20; Ex. 34:6; Num. 14:18; Neh. 9:30; Ps. 86:15; Rom. 2:4; 9:22; 1 Tim. 1:16; 2 Peter 3:9, 15; As the LORD says, "I have held My peace a long time" Isa. 42:14; "In Your enduring patience" Jer. 15:15; and "God is Love" 1 John 4:8, 16 and "Love is patient" 1 Cor. 13:4 and He is "the God of patience" Rom. 15:5; etc. Endurance: God endured His people’s complaints Num. 14:27 with "enduring patience" Jer. 15:15; He endured their misery Jud. 10:16; their cries Luke 18:7; the wicked Rom. 9:22; hostility Heb. 12:3; the cross Heb. 12:2 Slow to anger and long-suffering: Neh. 9:17; Ps. 103:8; 145:8; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2; Nah. 1:3 Provokable: God can go from not being provoked, to being provoked, such as being provoked to wrath Zech. 8:14; provoked in the wilderness Deut. 9:7; in Horeb 9:8; three other times 9:22; in Jehoiakim's time Ez. 5:12; provoked to jealousy and be aroused to anger, by Jeshurun Deut. 32:16; 32:19; by that perverse wilderness generation 32:21; by Judah 1 Ki. 14:22; during Shiloh's downfall Ps. 78:58; the generation after Joshua Jud. 2:12; by King Jeroboam 1 Ki. 15:30; by King Ahab 21:22; by King Ahaziah 22:53; by King Hoshea 2 Ki. 21:15; by Manasseh 23:26; by King Ahaz 2 Chr. 28:25; by Sanballat and Samaria's army Neh. 4:5; [9:18; 9:26]; at Paran Ps. 78:56; 78:58; at Beth Peor 106:29; by Judah Isa. 1:4; by God's people Jer. 8:19; by Israel 32:30; and Jerusalem specifically 32:31; by Ephraim Hos. 12:14 Curious: "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19; [Gen. 18:21; 22:12]; etc. Sustain emotion: I will not remain angry forever Jer. 3:12 Faithfulness: from everlasting to everlasting He endures in faithfulness for He is "the faithful God" Deut 7:9; possessing great faithfulness Lam. 3:23; Ps. 36:5; 37:3; 71:22; Ps. 89:24; God's faithfulness is not an inability (because He cannot change) but an ability (which He must actively maintain) Ps. 89:33; 92:2; 98:3; 119:75; 119:90; 143:1; Isa. 11:5; 25:1; Hos. 2:20; Hope: as many verses show (see above) that God hopes His prophecies of judgment will fail, clearly God hopes; biblical hope is knowledge influenced by love and faithfulness for "hope that is seen is not hope" Rom, 8:24 yet God hopes, for just as Paul describes Him as the "God of love", so too he writes of "the God of hope" Rom. 15:13; whereas hope is weakness and error to those who believe in divine unchanging knowledge, however God unhesitantly acknowledges His hope as through Zephaniah, "I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, you will receive instruction' but... they corrupted all their deeds" Zeph. 3:7; comparing Israel to a tended vineyard, "He expected it to bring forth good grapes" but it did not for instead "it brought forth wild grapes" Isaiah 5:1-2; "What more could have been done...?", God asks, thus He says, "I expected it to bring forth good grapes" but instead He got "wild grapes" Isa. 5:3-4; "My Father... is One who seeks and judges" John 8:49-50; for "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; (and see the Category 11 expectation verses below, including Isa. 30:15-16; 63:8-10; Jer. 18:7-8 and the Category 1 judgment prophecy verses above including Ezek. 33:14-15; Jer. 3:7; 18:7-8; 26:3, 13; Ezek. 18:30-31) Can be limited: "they... limited the Holy One of Israel" Ps. 78:41 (because love must be freely given, thus limiting God when His love goes unrequited) Related abilities: See also the remembers and looks forward to verses in the next category. Consider also Wisdom Job 12:13 (and even discernment Heb. 4:12). About 1,000 times God's Word mentions wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, four times more frequently than the mention of miracles, signs, and wonders. Wisdom is the application of experiential knowledge and good judgment. Wisdom, like insight, involves outcomes Prov. 3:19, 9:10; etc., and doing now what you will be satisfied with later. So God is frequently described as wise and having wisdom Job 9:4; 1 Kings 3:28; Dan. 2:20; 1 Cor. 1:25; 1 Tim. 1:17; Jude 25; Just as the Bible says that "hope that is seen is not hope", likewise, [good] judgment that is seen is not judgment, it's just vision. Further, experiential knowledge (see below), like good judgment and hope, is a kind of knowledge that can only be had by one who exists in time. 4 - God Acts Externally in Sequence showing that He is not outside of but in time (and see also just below, sequence within the Godhead). In actions: "But this Man [God the Son], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies" are subdued Heb. 10:12-13; prior to this, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God" Ps. 90:2; God then first created and then ceased from His creative work Gen. 2:1-3; later God waited while the ark was being prepared 1 Peter 3:20; God has not pre-determined everything He will do but He says that when certain things happen, then He determines what He will do next, by saying "I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me" Zech. 8:14; and likewise see Jer. 26:3 and "If you will not listen to Me... then I will make this... city a curse" Jer. 26:4, 6"; "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; God speaks in heaven 1 Kings 22:20 and from heaven Mat. 3:17; 17:5; Speaking requires sequence which is why Augustine claimed that God could not speak because Augustine, sadly, had been convinced of divine atemporality by Plato so he denied that God could have said this, "Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' " Mark 1:11; "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased' " Luke 3:22; and Augustine claims that God could not and did not utter those words even though they are self-evidently from the Father and even though the Apostle Peter explicitly attributes them to God 2 Peter 1:17; God was manifested in the flesh and (then after His death for Man's sin) justified by the Holy Spirit 1 Tim. 3:16; God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin saying, "It is finished!" John 19:30; He suffered, was killed, buried, and raised the third day Mat. 12:40; 16:21; 17:23; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; Acts 4:10; Rom. 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:4; regarding the old and new covenants He took "away the first that He may establish the second" Heb. 10:9; Jesus rose and then sought His disciples Mat. 26:32; Mark 14:28; John 21:14; God the Son went from not having a body John 4:24, to indwelling a form Gen. 3:8; 18:1-3; etc., to taking on a human body Luke 1:31, to having a "glorious body" Phil. 3:21; and God the Son "passed through the heavens" Heb. 4:14, whatever that means, to get from Earth to the Father's throne room; "but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" Heb. 9:26; "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" Heb. 9:28. In remembering and looking forward: God remembers as when He remembered His covenant with Abraham Ex. 2:24; and with Jacob Lev. 26:42; and His holy promise to the Israelites Ps. 105:42; etc.; Cornelius (the Gentile saved before baptism and apart from circumcision) had his alms remembered by God Acts 10:31; and God will remember Babylon's sins Rev. 16:19 and their iniquities Rev. 18:5; See also Gen 9:12-15; Ps. 136:23; Mal. 3:16; etc. (Also, when theologians say that God "enters" into time, what they're actually referring to is when God interacts with His creation. So as seen throughout Genesis to Revelation, even the common theological way of speaking admits that God acts in sequence, as there is a before He "enters" time and an after.) Jesus, who is God the Son, looked forward to the future time when His apostles would sit on twelve thrones and when He would sit on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; the Holy Spirit cannot act in someone's life until that person exists, so, significantly, the Scripture says to believers, "the Spirit of God dwells in you" 1 Cor. 3:16, something He could not do until you exist; "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" Acts 1:8; "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you" John 14:26; "I tell you the truth... if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin" John 16:7-8; "when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you" John 16:13; "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit" Eph. 1:13; etc.; "My Father... is One who seeks" John 8:49-50; "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; He held the righteous dead in "Abraham's Bosom" awaiting Christ's death, figuratively, with Abraham's Bosom as the Cities of Refuge, "until the death of the one who would be high priest in those days" Joshua 20:6; and literally, and symbolic of the entire group, upon Christ's death many graves were opened and the saints who had died were raised Mat. 27:52; at which time the deceased saints could finally then enter into heaven; also all "the days are coming" passages, like Amos 9:13-14; Mal. 3:17; etc. Et cetera: [Mark 2:8]; And see the closely related verses above showing that God having duration exists in time and below that time exists in heaven. 5 - God Experiences Sequence Internally within the Godhead, including sequence of relationship, deciding, planning, becoming things, and even sharing. The Father prepared a body for His Son Heb. 10:5; then He became the Father of a Son with two natures John 1:14; Luke 1:35 when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary; then the Father increased in favor with His Son Luke 2:52; the Son increased, for He must increase John 3:30; after the Son took upon Himself Man's sin, the Holy Spirit justified the Son 1 Tim. 3:16; (and if the throne at God's right hand suffices to refer to the Godhead, then consider also) God the Son, having become "the Son of Man", looks forward to again sitting on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; God "chose us in Him" (i.e., planned for the members of the Body of Christ) "before the foundation of the world" Eph. 1:4; the glory the Father gave to the Son because He loved Him before the creation John 17:24; and the glory He had shared with the Father before the world began John 17:5; "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name" John 14:26; "Then the Lord said in His heart, 'I will never again... destroy every living thing as I have done' " Gen. 8:21; Heb. 9:24; etc. . . . 21 - God Did Things Before the Creation showing sequence before the foundation of the world, i.e., before He allegedly created time. God chose us in Him (i.e., planned for the members of the Body of Christ) Eph. 1:4-5; the persons of the Godhead shared their glory John 17:5, 24; God foreordained wisdom for our glory before the ages 1 Cor. 2:7; Christ was foreknown before the foundation 1 Peter 1:20 [i.e., that God the Son would become the Messiah, even though we’re told, wrongly, that God can’t do anything in sequence]. . . . 28 - The Bible Shows that Time is in Heaven. Jesus opened the seventh seal and then there was silence in heaven for about half an hour Rev. 8:1; martyrs in heaven (don't ask God to forgive those who killed them, but rather, lacking the false spirituality common on Earth), inherently acknowledging time in heaven, ask: "How long O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…?" Rev. 6:9; Greek philosophers with Christian theologians quoting them deny that God was or will be and claim He only "is", whereas God is "the One who is and who was and who is to come" and in heaven awaits the "time of the dead" when "they should be judged" Rev. 11:17-18; the tree of life bore twelve fruits, a different one each month Rev. 22:2; "this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… from that time waiting till His enemies are defeated Heb. 10:12-13; As the LORD says, "I have held My peace a long time" Isa. 42:14; [etc.; plus the scores of verses above describing God as existing in everlasting duration.] If God's knowledge were unchanging however, then He could not know if heaven's silent half-hour were still future, had just begun, was past, etc. Some knowledge can only be known to a being that has changing knowledge. Creatures certainly have a "now" that we are experiencing and by the false teaching of timelessness and unchanging divine knowledge, then God could not even know what day it is. And if God had unchanging knowledge (as claimed by Plato and Augustine quoting him) then the LORD could not know what time it is, nor any other "tensed" fact. For even if you knew every line of a script you couldn't know which scene is currently being performed unless, like our God, you have changeable knowledge. . . . The Top Seven Categories of Verses that Don’t Exist: Hear the seven categories of non-existent verses discussed in Will Duffy's opening statement from his first debate with CARM's Calvinist theologian Matt Slick. If the future were settled, the many passages that could exist, and the many passages that believers are led to believe actually do exist, but don't, could include verses that say: - That God is outside of Time (timeless, in an eternal now, not was nor will be but only is, has no past, has no future) - That God knows everything that will ever happen - That God can intervene in the past - That God has decreed everything that will ever happen - That God created time - That God exists in the past and or the future - That God knew us before the foundations of the Earth.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

opentheism.org

I changed my mind about reading and responding to the rest of your post from which this has been condensed. I find it really a waste of everyone's time, with possibly the exception of yours. Evidently you get a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction out of this sort of thing, but though I quickly and shamefully stoop to your level----I know better and I hate it.

K, bye.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You claimed it was a verse "that supports a limited Almighty God." Just plain silly.

Appeal to the stone.

Make the argument, Glorydaz.

That's a very lazy response, but it seems to be quite popular. lol

An argument made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The "time appointed" was not referring to a woman's menstrual cycle. You're reaching, JR.

I didn't do an in-depth Bible study on the verse before posting that, GD.

What do you think it means?

Indeed, God created everything.

God created everything that was created.

We see time being created right here.

Gen. 1:14 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Time isn't being created. The verse literally say that God is establishing a relationship between the stars in the sky and the rotation of the earth.

Don't confuse clocks with time.

 

[Clete]

How do you know that God cannot control time ?

Because I can think clearly.

You cannot control something that does not exist except as a concept. Time is an idea, not an ontological thing that can be manipulated.

Do you have a scripture to support that belief ?

Of course I do! It is you who have exactly nothing to support the notion of a "timeless eternity". That idea is nowhere in scripture at all.

On the other hand, there is plenty of scripture that shows God to exist "in time", which is a good thing because if it taught the opposite it would falsify the entire bible because the entire idea of existence outside of time is a contradiction. The concept of existence presupposes duration. Duration is what time is. Thus, existence presupposes time. Therefore, to talk about existence outside of time is to commit a stolen concept fallacy and contradict yourself.

Further reading on this topic....

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.​

Since God is eternal an unchanging time, which God created, has no effect on Him.

God did not create time and, as I have already established, the entire idea of timeless existence is an oxymoron.

I try to keep my mind and beliefs about God inside of what the scripture teaches about God.

If this were so, you would not believe that God exists outside of time. The only reason you believe it now, whether you know it not, is because Augustine imported the idea from Plato.

I believe it is wise when debating, praying to, and or teaching about God to always remember when God spoke to Job and said this,” Job 38:2 who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge

Such passages are not intended to undermine the veracity of sound reason. Besides, why would such an admonition not apply to you? One of us is right and the other is wrong.

So far, I'm the one who has BOTH scripture and sound reason in support of my position.

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

And you have not proven from scripture that God did not create time, which is nothing more than your opinion. Scripture says God created all things and by Him all things consist. I have proven by scripture that God created time, but you cannot see nor receive that truth, sadly.

Read this!
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Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

You're free to do as you wish.



If you think that what I have said does that, then point it out to me, and show me how keeping it with other things you've said should change my response.



Indeed.



Because



And yet, I'm pretty sure I've posted the most scripture so far in this thread, in support of my arguments.



Wrong.

It's simply the first rotation of the earth completed.

Don't confuse clocks with time itself.



Space, yes.

Again, "time" doesn't exist, except as a convention of language.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



You said:



You were wrong (there were no instances in any of those passages that show that God is outside of time, and therefore your assertion implies that scripture must be then be wrong), therefore you bore false witness against God's word.

Repent. Ask God for wisdom.



Now you're arguing against logic itself.

You are, by definition, irrational.

Here is what SCRIPTURE says:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is based on reason. We have a reason to have faith.

Otherwise, your faith is in vain.



What is logical has nothing to do with my opinion. It is, by definition, objective.

"Now faith is . . . evidence..."



We have a convention of language that allows us to describe sequence.

Time isn't an actual "thing."



We live within reality.

Time is a construct we use to describe sequence.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Someone's not reading the thread thoroughly. Multiple times I have directed you and Leatherneck to previous posts in this thread where I verify what I say with scripture.

It's not my problem that you refuse to read them.



In what way am I "putting perimeters around Him"?



Yes, in the beginning of the creation (noun, not verb), God created.

God did things BEFORE the creation. Scripture says so. I have provided verses previously (and the entire thread is still here for you to read it) that show exactly that.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Not just us. Him too.

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. | Open Theism

opentheism.org

I'm not going to play guessing games with you. If you aren't going to reference the verse, then I'm not going to bother responding to your claims.

PROVE. IT.



Revelation 1:4
"Him who is and who was and who is to come"

Revelation 1:8
"“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”"

:think:



Begging the question.



Now your argument is contradicting itself. Was God always creating? or did God exist, then decided to create, then planned out the creation, then created?



No, we don't live in the future.

If you think you do, you may be mentally ill.



God remembers the past and looks forward to the future.

4 - God Acts Externally in Sequence showing that He is not outside of but in time (and see also just below, sequence within the Godhead). In actions: "But this Man [God the Son], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies" are subdued Heb. 10:12-13; prior to this, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God" Ps. 90:2; God then first created and then ceased from His creative work Gen. 2:1-3; later God waited while the ark was being prepared 1 Peter 3:20; God has not pre-determined everything He will do but He says that when certain things happen, then He determines what He will do next, by saying "I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me" Zech. 8:14; and likewise see Jer. 26:3 and "If you will not listen to Me... then I will make this... city a curse" Jer. 26:4, 6"; "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; God speaks in heaven 1 Kings 22:20 and from heaven Mat. 3:17; 17:5; Speaking requires sequence which is why Augustine claimed that God could not speak because Augustine, sadly, had been convinced of divine atemporality by Plato so he denied that God could have said this, "Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' " Mark 1:11; "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased' " Luke 3:22; and Augustine claims that God could not and did not utter those words even though they are self-evidently from the Father and even though the Apostle Peter explicitly attributes them to God 2 Peter 1:17; God was manifested in the flesh and (then after His death for Man's sin) justified by the Holy Spirit 1 Tim. 3:16; God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin saying, "It is finished!" John 19:30; He suffered, was killed, buried, and raised the third day Mat. 12:40; 16:21; 17:23; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; Acts 4:10; Rom. 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:4; regarding the old and new covenants He took "away the first that He may establish the second" Heb. 10:9; Jesus rose and then sought His disciples Mat. 26:32; Mark 14:28; John 21:14; God the Son went from not having a body John 4:24, to indwelling a form Gen. 3:8; 18:1-3; etc., to taking on a human body Luke 1:31, to having a "glorious body" Phil. 3:21; and God the Son "passed through the heavens" Heb. 4:14, whatever that means, to get from Earth to the Father's throne room; "but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" Heb. 9:26; "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" Heb. 9:28. In remembering and looking forward: God remembers as when He remembered His covenant with Abraham Ex. 2:24; and with Jacob Lev. 26:42; and His holy promise to the Israelites Ps. 105:42; etc.; Cornelius (the Gentile saved before baptism and apart from circumcision) had his alms remembered by God Acts 10:31; and God will remember Babylon's sins Rev. 16:19 and their iniquities Rev. 18:5; See also Gen 9:12-15; Ps. 136:23; Mal. 3:16; etc. (Also, when theologians say that God "enters" into time, what they're actually referring to is when God interacts with His creation. So as seen throughout Genesis to Revelation, even the common theological way of speaking admits that God acts in sequence, as there is a before He "enters" time and an after.) Jesus, who is God the Son, looked forward to the future time when His apostles would sit on twelve thrones and when He would sit on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; the Holy Spirit cannot act in someone's life until that person exists, so, significantly, the Scripture says to believers, "the Spirit of God dwells in you" 1 Cor. 3:16, something He could not do until you exist; "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" Acts 1:8; "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you" John 14:26; "I tell you the truth... if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin" John 16:7-8; "when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you" John 16:13; "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit" Eph. 1:13; etc.; "My Father... is One who seeks" John 8:49-50; "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; He held the righteous dead in "Abraham's Bosom" awaiting Christ's death, figuratively, with Abraham's Bosom as the Cities of Refuge, "until the death of the one who would be high priest in those days" Joshua 20:6; and literally, and symbolic of the entire group, upon Christ's death many graves were opened and the saints who had died were raised Mat. 27:52; at which time the deceased saints could finally then enter into heaven; also all "the days are coming" passages, like Amos 9:13-14; Mal. 3:17; etc. Et cetera: [Mark 2:8]; And see the closely related verses above showing that God having duration exists in time and below that time exists in heaven.

Chapter, verse.



Chapter, verse.

Nicer than God | KGOV.com

kgov.com

If you're confused about the flow of the conversation, I recommend going back and reading the thread again.



I'll let the thread speak for itself.



Do you have a point to make?



It shows us that, but can't actually show us or communicate it?

Yeah, that's real rational...

Not.

Scripture on the other hand:

2 - God Exists in Time through duration contrary to the opposing claim of Plato and Augustine. Speaking of Jesus Christ, "this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool" Heb. 10:12-13, and see the related passages Ps. 110:1; Mat. 22:44; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Heb. 1:13; Jesus said, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; and of God the Son, "the Word became flesh" John 1:14; etc.; God gets weary of repenting Jer. 15:6; He asks "how long" shall I bear with an evil people Num. 14:27; "Therefore the Lord will wait, that He may be gracious to you... Blessed are all those who wait for Him" Isa. 30:18; God existing outside of time would invalidate one of the Lord's most wonderful arguments "concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken" Mark 12:26-27 and Jesus argument is not unsound, which it would be if God existed outside of time, for then Abraham would be alive to God eternally even if there were no life after death; and the Burning Bush passage itself therefore shows God in time Ex. 3:6; and with God in time, of course, so the rest of the spiritual realm exists in time Mat. 8:29; Scripture never describes God as atemporal, timeless, having no past or future, or outside of time; the Bible frequently though describes Him as in duration including "God who is - and was - and is to come... says the Lord, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty' " Rev. 1:4, 8; "whose goings forth are from of old" Mic. 5:2; "before all [created] things" Col. 1:17; "forever and ever" Ex. 15:18; 1 Chr. 29:10; Ps. 10:16; 45:6; 48:14; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 4:9-10; 5:14; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; "the Ancient of Days" Dan. 7:9; 7:13; 7:22; in the Greek, from before the ages of the ages 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; "from ancient times" Isa. 46:10; "the everlasting God" Gen. 21:33; Isa. 40:28; Rom. 16:26; [Deut. 33:27]; "He continues forever" Heb. 7:24; "from of old" Ps. 25:6; 55:19; 93:2; Isa. 57:11; "from everlasting" Ps. 93:2; Micah 5:2; "remains forever" John 12:34; has "everlasting dominion" Dan. 4:34; "abides" 1 John 2:17; "eternal" Rom. 1:20; 2 Cor. 4:18; 1 Tim. 1:17; Heb. 9:14; 1 John 5:11; Immortal 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; "the Lord shall endure forever" Ps. 9:7; who "lives forever" Dan. 4:34; 12:7; Rev. 4:9-10; 5:14; 10:6; 15:7; "yesterday, today, and forever" Heb. 13:8; "His years" are without number Job 36:26; "rock of ages" / "everlasting strength" Isa. 26:9; "manifest in His own time" 1 Tim. 6:15; "everlasting Father" Isa. 9:6; "alive forevermore" Rev. 1:18; "always lives" Heb. 7:25; "forever" Ps. 110:4; 146:10; Dan. 6:26; Rom. 16:27; 2 Cor. 9:9; Heb. 1:8; 7:21; 24; 28; 1 John 2:17; Jude 1:25; Rev. 1:6; "continually" Ps.40:11; 52:1; Luke 1:33; Heb. 7:3; "the eternal God" Deut. 33:27; God’s "years will have no end" Ps. 102:27; "from everlasting to everlasting" 1 Chr. 16:36; Ps. 41:13; 90:2; 106:48; "from that time forward, even forever" Isa. 9:7; so "when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman" Gal. 4:4; then, not us, but God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin when He said, "It is finished!" John 19:30; "He will reign... and of His kingdom there will be no end" Luke 1:33; etc. And see the closely related verses of Category 3 and of Category 4 showing that God acts in sequence and also of Category 28 that time exists in heaven. 3 - God has Qualities that can Only be had if He Exists in Time like patience, slow to anger, and hope. Patience: 1 Peter 3:20; Ex. 34:6; Num. 14:18; Neh. 9:30; Ps. 86:15; Rom. 2:4; 9:22; 1 Tim. 1:16; 2 Peter 3:9, 15; As the LORD says, "I have held My peace a long time" Isa. 42:14; "In Your enduring patience" Jer. 15:15; and "God is Love" 1 John 4:8, 16 and "Love is patient" 1 Cor. 13:4 and He is "the God of patience" Rom. 15:5; etc. Endurance: God endured His people’s complaints Num. 14:27 with "enduring patience" Jer. 15:15; He endured their misery Jud. 10:16; their cries Luke 18:7; the wicked Rom. 9:22; hostility Heb. 12:3; the cross Heb. 12:2 Slow to anger and long-suffering: Neh. 9:17; Ps. 103:8; 145:8; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2; Nah. 1:3 Provokable: God can go from not being provoked, to being provoked, such as being provoked to wrath Zech. 8:14; provoked in the wilderness Deut. 9:7; in Horeb 9:8; three other times 9:22; in Jehoiakim's time Ez. 5:12; provoked to jealousy and be aroused to anger, by Jeshurun Deut. 32:16; 32:19; by that perverse wilderness generation 32:21; by Judah 1 Ki. 14:22; during Shiloh's downfall Ps. 78:58; the generation after Joshua Jud. 2:12; by King Jeroboam 1 Ki. 15:30; by King Ahab 21:22; by King Ahaziah 22:53; by King Hoshea 2 Ki. 21:15; by Manasseh 23:26; by King Ahaz 2 Chr. 28:25; by Sanballat and Samaria's army Neh. 4:5; [9:18; 9:26]; at Paran Ps. 78:56; 78:58; at Beth Peor 106:29; by Judah Isa. 1:4; by God's people Jer. 8:19; by Israel 32:30; and Jerusalem specifically 32:31; by Ephraim Hos. 12:14 Curious: "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name" Gen. 2:19; [Gen. 18:21; 22:12]; etc. Sustain emotion: I will not remain angry forever Jer. 3:12 Faithfulness: from everlasting to everlasting He endures in faithfulness for He is "the faithful God" Deut 7:9; possessing great faithfulness Lam. 3:23; Ps. 36:5; 37:3; 71:22; Ps. 89:24; God's faithfulness is not an inability (because He cannot change) but an ability (which He must actively maintain) Ps. 89:33; 92:2; 98:3; 119:75; 119:90; 143:1; Isa. 11:5; 25:1; Hos. 2:20; Hope: as many verses show (see above) that God hopes His prophecies of judgment will fail, clearly God hopes; biblical hope is knowledge influenced by love and faithfulness for "hope that is seen is not hope" Rom, 8:24 yet God hopes, for just as Paul describes Him as the "God of love", so too he writes of "the God of hope" Rom. 15:13; whereas hope is weakness and error to those who believe in divine unchanging knowledge, however God unhesitantly acknowledges His hope as through Zephaniah, "I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, you will receive instruction' but... they corrupted all their deeds" Zeph. 3:7; comparing Israel to a tended vineyard, "He expected it to bring forth good grapes" but it did not for instead "it brought forth wild grapes" Isaiah 5:1-2; "What more could have been done...?", God asks, thus He says, "I expected it to bring forth good grapes" but instead He got "wild grapes" Isa. 5:3-4; "My Father... is One who seeks and judges" John 8:49-50; for "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; (and see the Category 11 expectation verses below, including Isa. 30:15-16; 63:8-10; Jer. 18:7-8 and the Category 1 judgment prophecy verses above including Ezek. 33:14-15; Jer. 3:7; 18:7-8; 26:3, 13; Ezek. 18:30-31) Can be limited: "they... limited the Holy One of Israel" Ps. 78:41 (because love must be freely given, thus limiting God when His love goes unrequited) Related abilities: See also the remembers and looks forward to verses in the next category. Consider also Wisdom Job 12:13 (and even discernment Heb. 4:12). About 1,000 times God's Word mentions wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, four times more frequently than the mention of miracles, signs, and wonders. Wisdom is the application of experiential knowledge and good judgment. Wisdom, like insight, involves outcomes Prov. 3:19, 9:10; etc., and doing now what you will be satisfied with later. So God is frequently described as wise and having wisdom Job 9:4; 1 Kings 3:28; Dan. 2:20; 1 Cor. 1:25; 1 Tim. 1:17; Jude 25; Just as the Bible says that "hope that is seen is not hope", likewise, [good] judgment that is seen is not judgment, it's just vision. Further, experiential knowledge (see below), like good judgment and hope, is a kind of knowledge that can only be had by one who exists in time. 4 - God Acts Externally in Sequence showing that He is not outside of but in time (and see also just below, sequence within the Godhead). In actions: "But this Man [God the Son], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies" are subdued Heb. 10:12-13; prior to this, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God" Ps. 90:2; God then first created and then ceased from His creative work Gen. 2:1-3; later God waited while the ark was being prepared 1 Peter 3:20; God has not pre-determined everything He will do but He says that when certain things happen, then He determines what He will do next, by saying "I determined to punish you when your fathers provoked Me" Zech. 8:14; and likewise see Jer. 26:3 and "If you will not listen to Me... then I will make this... city a curse" Jer. 26:4, 6"; "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" John 5:17; God speaks in heaven 1 Kings 22:20 and from heaven Mat. 3:17; 17:5; Speaking requires sequence which is why Augustine claimed that God could not speak because Augustine, sadly, had been convinced of divine atemporality by Plato so he denied that God could have said this, "Then a voice came from heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' " Mark 1:11; "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased' " Luke 3:22; and Augustine claims that God could not and did not utter those words even though they are self-evidently from the Father and even though the Apostle Peter explicitly attributes them to God 2 Peter 1:17; God was manifested in the flesh and (then after His death for Man's sin) justified by the Holy Spirit 1 Tim. 3:16; God the Son "finished" paying for man's sin saying, "It is finished!" John 19:30; He suffered, was killed, buried, and raised the third day Mat. 12:40; 16:21; 17:23; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; Acts 4:10; Rom. 14:9; 1 Cor. 15:4; regarding the old and new covenants He took "away the first that He may establish the second" Heb. 10:9; Jesus rose and then sought His disciples Mat. 26:32; Mark 14:28; John 21:14; God the Son went from not having a body John 4:24, to indwelling a form Gen. 3:8; 18:1-3; etc., to taking on a human body Luke 1:31, to having a "glorious body" Phil. 3:21; and God the Son "passed through the heavens" Heb. 4:14, whatever that means, to get from Earth to the Father's throne room; "but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" Heb. 9:26; "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" Heb. 9:28. In remembering and looking forward: God remembers as when He remembered His covenant with Abraham Ex. 2:24; and with Jacob Lev. 26:42; and His holy promise to the Israelites Ps. 105:42; etc.; Cornelius (the Gentile saved before baptism and apart from circumcision) had his alms remembered by God Acts 10:31; and God will remember Babylon's sins Rev. 16:19 and their iniquities Rev. 18:5; See also Gen 9:12-15; Ps. 136:23; Mal. 3:16; etc. (Also, when theologians say that God "enters" into time, what they're actually referring to is when God interacts with His creation. So as seen throughout Genesis to Revelation, even the common theological way of speaking admits that God acts in sequence, as there is a before He "enters" time and an after.) Jesus, who is God the Son, looked forward to the future time when His apostles would sit on twelve thrones and when He would sit on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; the Holy Spirit cannot act in someone's life until that person exists, so, significantly, the Scripture says to believers, "the Spirit of God dwells in you" 1 Cor. 3:16, something He could not do until you exist; "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" Acts 1:8; "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you" John 14:26; "I tell you the truth... if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin" John 16:7-8; "when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you" John 16:13; "having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit" Eph. 1:13; etc.; "My Father... is One who seeks" John 8:49-50; "He seeks godly offspring" Mal. 2:15; He held the righteous dead in "Abraham's Bosom" awaiting Christ's death, figuratively, with Abraham's Bosom as the Cities of Refuge, "until the death of the one who would be high priest in those days" Joshua 20:6; and literally, and symbolic of the entire group, upon Christ's death many graves were opened and the saints who had died were raised Mat. 27:52; at which time the deceased saints could finally then enter into heaven; also all "the days are coming" passages, like Amos 9:13-14; Mal. 3:17; etc. Et cetera: [Mark 2:8]; And see the closely related verses above showing that God having duration exists in time and below that time exists in heaven. 5 - God Experiences Sequence Internally within the Godhead, including sequence of relationship, deciding, planning, becoming things, and even sharing. The Father prepared a body for His Son Heb. 10:5; then He became the Father of a Son with two natures John 1:14; Luke 1:35 when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary; then the Father increased in favor with His Son Luke 2:52; the Son increased, for He must increase John 3:30; after the Son took upon Himself Man's sin, the Holy Spirit justified the Son 1 Tim. 3:16; (and if the throne at God's right hand suffices to refer to the Godhead, then consider also) God the Son, having become "the Son of Man", looks forward to again sitting on the throne of His glory Mat. 19:28; God "chose us in Him" (i.e., planned for the members of the Body of Christ) "before the foundation of the world" Eph. 1:4; the glory the Father gave to the Son because He loved Him before the creation John 17:24; and the glory He had shared with the Father before the world began John 17:5; "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name" John 14:26; "Then the Lord said in His heart, 'I will never again... destroy every living thing as I have done' " Gen. 8:21; Heb. 9:24; etc. . . . 21 - God Did Things Before the Creation showing sequence before the foundation of the world, i.e., before He allegedly created time. God chose us in Him (i.e., planned for the members of the Body of Christ) Eph. 1:4-5; the persons of the Godhead shared their glory John 17:5, 24; God foreordained wisdom for our glory before the ages 1 Cor. 2:7; Christ was foreknown before the foundation 1 Peter 1:20 [i.e., that God the Son would become the Messiah, even though we’re told, wrongly, that God can’t do anything in sequence]. . . . 28 - The Bible Shows that Time is in Heaven. Jesus opened the seventh seal and then there was silence in heaven for about half an hour Rev. 8:1; martyrs in heaven (don't ask God to forgive those who killed them, but rather, lacking the false spirituality common on Earth), inherently acknowledging time in heaven, ask: "How long O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…?" Rev. 6:9; Greek philosophers with Christian theologians quoting them deny that God was or will be and claim He only "is", whereas God is "the One who is and who was and who is to come" and in heaven awaits the "time of the dead" when "they should be judged" Rev. 11:17-18; the tree of life bore twelve fruits, a different one each month Rev. 22:2; "this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… from that time waiting till His enemies are defeated Heb. 10:12-13; As the LORD says, "I have held My peace a long time" Isa. 42:14; [etc.; plus the scores of verses above describing God as existing in everlasting duration.] If God's knowledge were unchanging however, then He could not know if heaven's silent half-hour were still future, had just begun, was past, etc. Some knowledge can only be known to a being that has changing knowledge. Creatures certainly have a "now" that we are experiencing and by the false teaching of timelessness and unchanging divine knowledge, then God could not even know what day it is. And if God had unchanging knowledge (as claimed by Plato and Augustine quoting him) then the LORD could not know what time it is, nor any other "tensed" fact. For even if you knew every line of a script you couldn't know which scene is currently being performed unless, like our God, you have changeable knowledge. . . . The Top Seven Categories of Verses that Don’t Exist: Hear the seven categories of non-existent verses discussed in Will Duffy's opening statement from his first debate with CARM's Calvinist theologian Matt Slick. If the future were settled, the many passages that could exist, and the many passages that believers are led to believe actually do exist, but don't, could include verses that say: - That God is outside of Time (timeless, in an eternal now, not was nor will be but only is, has no past, has no future) - That God knows everything that will ever happen - That God can intervene in the past - That God has decreed everything that will ever happen - That God created time - That God exists in the past and or the future - That God knew us before the foundations of the Earth.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

opentheism.org

K, bye.

 

[Clete]

I don't believe for a minute that God's plan was for Adam to obey His command.

Why should I care about what you believe?

You're saying God didn't know what He was doing when He created man with a free will and put him in a body of flesh?

That's stupidity.

Of course He knew what He was doing. That's why He had a plan in place to deal with it if Adam chose to disobey.

Do you suppose God would have broken had Adam decided to obey God's command and refused to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Would God have freaked out and been defeated by Adam's obedience? Certainly not!

 

[Leatherneck]

Because I can think clearly.

You cannot control something that does not exist except as a concept. Time is an idea, not an ontological thing that can be manipulated.

Of course I do! It is you who have exactly nothing to support the notion of a "timeless eternity". That idea is nowhere in scripture at all.

On the other hand, there is plenty of scripture that shows God to exist "in time", which is a good thing because if it taught the opposite it would falsify the entire bible because the entire idea of existence outside of time is a contradiction. The concept of existence presupposes duration. Duration is what time is. Thus, existence presupposes time. Therefore, to talk about existence outside of time is to commit a stolen concept fallacy and contradict yourself.

Further reading on this topic....

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.​

God did not create time and, as I have already established, the entire idea of timeless existence is an oxymoron.


If this were so, you would not believe that God exists outside of time. The only reason you believe it now, whether you know it not, is because Augustine imported the idea from Plato.


Such passages are not intended to undermine the veracity of sound reason. Besides, why would such an admonition not apply to you? One of us is right and the other is wrong.

So far, I'm the one who has BOTH scripture and sound reason in support of my position.

Clete

T

Because I can think clearly.

You cannot control something that does not exist except as a concept. Time is an idea, not an ontological thing that can be manipulated.

Of course I do! It is you who have exactly nothing to support the notion of a "timeless eternity". That idea is nowhere in scripture at all.

On the other hand, there is plenty of scripture that shows God to exist "in time", which is a good thing because if it taught the opposite it would falsify the entire bible because the entire idea of existence outside of time is a contradiction. The concept of existence presupposes duration. Duration is what time is. Thus, existence presupposes time. Therefore, to talk about existence outside of time is to commit a stolen concept fallacy and contradict yourself.

Further reading on this topic....

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.​

God did not create time and, as I have already established, the entire idea of timeless existence is an oxymoron.


If this were so, you would not believe that God exists outside of time. The only reason you believe it now, whether you know it not, is because Augustine imported the idea from Plato.


Such passages are not intended to undermine the veracity of sound reason. Besides, why would such an admonition not apply to you? One of us is right and the other is wrong.

So far, I'm the one who has BOTH scripture and sound reason in support of my position.

Clete

i have scripture that proves God created time do you have even one scripture proving that God did not create time.? Not opinion or a philosophical belief but scripture that says God did not create time ?????
Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions,or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Is time a part of all things, and if not do you have a scripture( not philosophical Mumbo jumbo) to support that belief ?
Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter. As such, time exists when matter exists. But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter. The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end, but He cannot be wholly defined by eternity, especially as a measure of time. Eternity is one of God’s attributes, but, having created time, He is greater than time and exists outside of it. Thus, He exists outside of eternity. God is even beyond eternity. https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html

 

[Arial]

Makes you just want to jump right in and play, doesn't it?

I forgot the other one that turns up in almost all his/her posts, sometimes in multiples as a defense "Saying it doesn't make it so."

 

[glorydaz]

Appeal to the stone.

Make the argument, Glorydaz.



An argument made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



I didn't do an in-depth Bible study on the verse before posting that, GD.

What do you think it means?



God created everything that was created.



Time isn't being created. The verse literally say that God is establishing a relationship between the stars in the sky and the rotation of the earth.

Don't confuse clocks with time.

Seriously, JR? If you have to speak like a robot and act like a robot, you won't get many takers.

 

[glorydaz]

Why should I care about what you believe?

Do you seriously think that comment encourages discussion?

That's stupidity.

Of course He knew what He was doing. That's why He had a plan in place to deal with it if Adam chose to disobey.

Do you suppose God would have broken had Adam decided to obey God's command and refused to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Would God have freaked out and been defeated by Adam's obedience? Certainly not!

Perhaps if you're really interested in getting your point across, you should stop asking stupid questions to begin with.

You said, "God's plan was for Adam to obey His command." So you're calling God an idiot. Not too smart.