Nontrinitarian "Christians" are a paradox

[jsanford108]

When one meets with a nontrinitarian "Christian," a set of contradictory views and opinions are usually found with that person. A nontrinitarian Jew makes sense. But any who claim to be a Christian, cannot logically hold a nontrinitarian view. It is a paradox. One of the very basic dogmatic truths of Christianity is the Trinity.

The nontrinitarians should, by logic, dismiss Christ. Why? Because, if there is no Trinity, then Christ saying "I Am," is blasphemy. This was even understood by the Jews. Furthermore, John 10:30 would also be blasphemy. Therefore, a nontrinitarian would logically reject the Gospels, in particularly Christ, as well as the entirety of the New Testament.

Examples abound in the New Testament of Christ being akin to God. Even one with God. There are also two verses that come to mind that directly point to the Trinity. The oldest of letters and evidence by early Christians demonstrates a widespread acceptance of the Trinity. It is documented thoroughly in the first four centuries after Christ.

A nontrinitarian view, combined with the claim to be "Christian," is, in conclusion, a paradox. (Hence, no wonder most of their other views are skewed or visibly contradictory with common sense and the Bible itself) So my suggestion to fellow Christians, rather than enter into debates with nontrinitarians about various other doctrines, is to discuss the Trinity. For that is their glaring issue, and one which is in direct opposition to the teachings and attributes of Christ.

 

[meshak]

Can you give us reference claiming you have to believe in the trinity to be saved or Christian?

 

[daqq]

Every single passage which is constantly yanked from its context so as to supposedly "prove" the Trinitarian viewpoint is one of those same passages which are all under contention. Ever notice that fact? Every single one of them is hotly debated as to what it truly says and in some cases we even have multiple manuscripts and or codices which do not even agree. And in two of the more prominent cases, (Matthew 28:19 and the Johannine Comma, or Comma Johanneum, which is 1John 5:7-8), we know that Trinitrian "scholars" inserted words and statements into the text so as to support their dogma because their dogma is clearly not openly taught anywhere in the N/T writings. It is all smoke and mirrors and supposedly hidden in "a mystery" which cannot be explained but "better be believed" just because the mother church said so long ago, (and the mother church has clearly labeled the Trinity "a mystery" because it cannot be explained or even properly expounded from the scripture when the scripture is taken in its entirety). The Trinitarian view is extracted and extrapolated from a small host of controversial passages which do not actually say what Trinitarians and their so-called scholars proclaim that they say. The only thing mainstream Christianity actually does have in its favor, as far as the Trinitarian dogma, is safety in numbers under the umbrella of a mother church; which Messiah himself has already said is error, (the broad road which leads to destruction is the way of the herd and those of the herd mentality).

 

[meshak]

They cannot even explain, yet they use this doctrine to persecute non-trins.

 

[jamie]

The holy spirit was not available during Jesus' ministry.

On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:37-39)​

Is the holy Spirit poured out like rivers of living water? And where was this living water during Jesus' human ministry?

 

[popsthebuilder]

When one meets with a nontrinitarian "Christian," a set of contradictory views and opinions are usually found with that person. A nontrinitarian Jew makes sense. But any who claim to be a Christian, cannot logically hold a nontrinitarian view. It is a paradox. One of the very basic dogmatic truths of Christianity is the Trinity.

The nontrinitarians should, by logic, dismiss Christ. Why? Because, if there is no Trinity, then Christ saying "I Am," is blasphemy. This was even understood by the Jews. Furthermore, John 10:30 would also be blasphemy. Therefore, a nontrinitarian would logically reject the Gospels, in particularly Christ, as well as the entirety of the New Testament.

Examples abound in the New Testament of Christ being akin to God. Even one with God. There are also two verses that come to mind that directly point to the Trinity. The oldest of letters and evidence by early Christians demonstrates a widespread acceptance of the Trinity. It is documented thoroughly in the first four centuries after Christ.

A nontrinitarian view, combined with the claim to be "Christian," is, in conclusion, a paradox. (Hence, no wonder most of their other views are skewed or visibly contradictory with common sense and the Bible itself) So my suggestion to fellow Christians, rather than enter into debates with nontrinitarians about various other doctrines, is to discuss the Trinity. For that is their glaring issue, and one which is in direct opposition to the teachings and attributes of Christ.

Wow, that entire op was pretty much I big lie.

Nice

Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk

 

[freelight]

Lets consider these points, for starters.................

Lets consider these points, for starters.................

When one meets with a nontrinitarian "Christian," a set of contradictory views and opinions are usually found with that person. A nontrinitarian Jew makes sense. But any who claim to be a Christian, cannot logically hold a nontrinitarian view. It is a paradox.

Hi jsanford

No paradox at all, since Jesus and his original apostles were all monotheist Unitarians. The only 'paradox' is people later superimposing a Trinitarian concept of a godhead upon the One True God, attempting to wholly DEIFY the man Jesus. - that gesture added parodoxical complications, where creeds were 'invented' to attempt to explain it all, after so many church councils debating (splitting hairs) over all the fine details. (lots of wigs were frazzled back in the day). With a pure simple monotheist Unitarian view of God and his Messiah,....the complications of a 'Trinity' do not exist. (one can interpret many facets of the Messiah, in 'new creation' or 'new man' terms, exploring their inner spiritual esoteric meaning and archetypes...of course,...but for practical reasons...Unitarianism is a more simple route).

You properly note traditional Orthodox Judaism as being Unitarian, indeed. Many satisfied and happy biblical Unitarian Christians also exist

One of the very basic dogmatic truths of Christianity is the Trinity.

Correct,...that is, it being a 'dogma' of traditional 'orthodox' Christianity. - its a 'dogma' they formulated.

The nontrinitarians should, by logic, dismiss Christ. Why? Because, if there is no Trinity, then Christ saying "I Am," is blasphemy. This was even understood by the Jews. Furthermore, John 10:30 would also be blasphemy. Therefore, a nontrinitarian would logically reject the Gospels, in particularly Christ, as well as the entirety of the New Testament.

We have threads discussing Unitarian/Trinitarian issues of Christology,....every so called Trinity proof-text can be explained from a Unitarian perspective and resolve.

See also: The Trinity Delusion.

Examples abound in the New Testament of Christ being akin to God. Even one with God. There are also two verses that come to mind that directly point to the Trinity. The oldest of letters and evidence by early Christians demonstrates a widespread acceptance of the Trinity. It is documented thoroughly in the first four centuries after Christ.

This is debatable and Unitarians can provide historical, biblical evidence to support their view against the Trinity. Jesus prayed we all becomes one, just as he and the Father were one,...assuming we accept Jesus prayer, and are faithful to him,...does this make us 'God'? - we are all one with God NOW, in Spirit. Jesus was sent by 'God'. - the biblical record requires no further complications of doctrine much beyond this, and that by believing that Jesus is the SON of God, you can have life into the ages.

A nontrinitarian view, combined with the claim to be "Christian," is, in conclusion, a paradox.

This is only if a prefigured, preconceived, presumption is 'assumed' about the Trinity. Otherwise, no paradox. - you see that by adding the Trinity, that begets your 'paradox'? - see that? The paradox is only being entertained in your mind, because of your presumption of a Trinity in the first place. Drop that, and the paradox disappears *poof*

'God' remains 'God', the One that ever IS. No concept can contain Him, since He is Infinite.

(Hence, no wonder most of their other views are skewed or visibly contradictory with common sense and the Bible itself)

Jews for 2 millennia have known and transcribed their scriptures.....and NO TRINITY has been discovered, taught or held traditionally by any of its prophets or rabbis. Total silence. Their monotheistic Unitarian Theology has no Trinity in it. Why is that?

So my suggestion to fellow Christians, rather than enter into debates with nontrinitarians about various other doctrines, is to discuss the Trinity.

Here are some threads covering this issue -

This Day have I begotten You

Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

Jesus Christ is God Almighty, Jehovah

For that is their glaring issue, and one which is in direct opposition to the teachings and attributes of Christ.

Can you provide evidence that a Trintiarian Christian view is any more morally or ethically, spiritually/philosophically correct or superior than a Unitarian form of Christianity? - what you basically got going is a doctrinal concept of God as a compound of 3 personalities.... in contrast to a purely monotheistic Unitarian God, who is Singularly YHWH, yet has a human Messiah-Son whom he anoints, empowers and fills with His Spirit, and joins to him other sons by adopting them into the Messiah thru spiritual regeneration, where they all become the SON, the Messiah (anointed hu-man community) of God. In both views, there is still one Spirit joining, anointing, filling, empowering, renewing! - God is One in reality, in both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism,...the only differences are 'conceptually', regarding the relational unity of God and his Son, and the Spirit that is shared in divine company. - some 'differences' noted are mere 'cosmetics'.

The fundamental truth and essence of 'God' and His Messiah-Son holds thru-out, no matter how much u deify or humanize the Son (slice, dice and splice as you please)....'God' Alone, as Pure Spirit, is 'God'. 'God' is not a man, although man is a creation of God, indwelt and sustained by God, in both image and substance, with immortality and perfection-potential within his own given sphere of possibilities. He is the steward of divine gifts and callings, and as a son inherits all that his Father has.

See: Meta-tation

 

[Squeaky]

When one meets with a nontrinitarian "Christian," a set of contradictory views and opinions are usually found with that person. A nontrinitarian Jew makes sense. But any who claim to be a Christian, cannot logically hold a nontrinitarian view. It is a paradox. One of the very basic dogmatic truths of Christianity is the Trinity.

The nontrinitarians should, by logic, dismiss Christ. Why? Because, if there is no Trinity, then Christ saying "I Am," is blasphemy. This was even understood by the Jews. Furthermore, John 10:30 would also be blasphemy. Therefore, a nontrinitarian would logically reject the Gospels, in particularly Christ, as well as the entirety of the New Testament.

Examples abound in the New Testament of Christ being akin to God. Even one with God. There are also two verses that come to mind that directly point to the Trinity. The oldest of letters and evidence by early Christians demonstrates a widespread acceptance of the Trinity. It is documented thoroughly in the first four centuries after Christ.

A nontrinitarian view, combined with the claim to be "Christian," is, in conclusion, a paradox. (Hence, no wonder most of their other views are skewed or visibly contradictory with common sense and the Bible itself) So my suggestion to fellow Christians, rather than enter into debates with nontrinitarians about various other doctrines, is to discuss the Trinity. For that is their glaring issue, and one which is in direct opposition to the teachings and attributes of Christ.

I said
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

 

[daqq]

I said
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)

xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

Not even close . . .

John 8:24-25
24 I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins:
for if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ―, you will die in your sins.
25 They said therefore to him, You are who? [because they understood that he did not complete the "I am" statement] Yeshua said to them, That which I also spoke to you at the beginning!

John 8:28
28 Then Yeshua said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall you know that I am ― ― ― ― ―, and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58
58 Yeshua said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham is done, [speaking of Genesis 22] I am ― ― ― ― ―! [the Ram]

 

[jamie]

You properly note traditional Orthodox Judaism as being Unitarian...

Orthodox Judaism is an invention of men and is not biblical.

Therefore they can make up whatever they want to believe.

 

[Nick M]

Can you give us reference claiming you have to believe in the trinity to be saved or Christian?

Can you give an example of any one saying it? I thought so. Oh you full of fraud and deceit. How long will keep perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

 

[freelight]

Not even close . . .

John 8:24-25
24 I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins:
for if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ―, you will die in your sins.
25 They said therefore to him, You are who? [because they understood that he did not complete the "I am" statement] Yeshua said to them, That which I also spoke to you at the beginning!

John 8:28
28 Then Yeshua said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall you know that I am ― ― ― ― ―, and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58
58 Yeshua said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham is done, [speaking of Genesis 22] I am ― ― ― ― ―! [the Ram]

Interesting daqq,

I've engaged in 2 former threads just on the passage of John 8:58, and a JW brother and I always defended the verse as NOT proving Jesus was YHWH, or the 'I AM' of Ex. 3:14,...as the verse is also indicating Jesus as admitting to be the 'Messiah',...as in 'I am (he)',. meaning the one Abraham was looking towards to COME in the future as the Messiah. But perhaps I am misreading your response here - as you know, trinitarian translators capitalize the 'I AM' in this passage with a trinitarian bias to make Jesus look like hes claiming to be 'Ehyeh', the name God spoke in Ex. 3:14, but we've provided much evidence against this 'assumption'. I guess we need to re-cap

 

[freelight]

Orthodox Judaism is an invention of men and is not biblical.

Therefore they can make up whatever they want to believe.

Orthodox Judaism bases their theology on their very own scriptures, so it is 'biblical' by definition. You'll have to prove your statement by providing ample evidence to support it

Christians also, if you're going to level judgements, also make up whatever they want to be believe....you'll see MORE christian denominations typically in Christianity than in Judaism

 

[marhig]

When one meets with a nontrinitarian "Christian," a set of contradictory views and opinions are usually found with that person. A nontrinitarian Jew makes sense. But any who claim to be a Christian, cannot logically hold a nontrinitarian view. It is a paradox. One of the very basic dogmatic truths of Christianity is the Trinity.

The nontrinitarians should, by logic, dismiss Christ. Why? Because, if there is no Trinity, then Christ saying "I Am," is blasphemy. This was even understood by the Jews. Furthermore, John 10:30 would also be blasphemy. Therefore, a nontrinitarian would logically reject the Gospels, in particularly Christ, as well as the entirety of the New Testament.

Examples abound in the New Testament of Christ being akin to God. Even one with God. There are also two verses that come to mind that directly point to the Trinity. The oldest of letters and evidence by early Christians demonstrates a widespread acceptance of the Trinity. It is documented thoroughly in the first four centuries after Christ.

A nontrinitarian view, combined with the claim to be "Christian," is, in conclusion, a paradox. (Hence, no wonder most of their other views are skewed or visibly contradictory with common sense and the Bible itself) So my suggestion to fellow Christians, rather than enter into debates with nontrinitarians about various other doctrines, is to discuss the Trinity. For that is their glaring issue, and one which is in direct opposition to the teachings and attributes of Christ.

So you believe that there are 2 verses that point directly to the trinity?

Well there's at least all these following verses that point against it! And if you want me to, I'll go and find more?

It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.(Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but thy will.(Luke 22:42 KJV)

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46 KJV)

Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh

John continues:

Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19 KJV)

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. (John 8:18 KJV).

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28 KJV)

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5-30)


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5)


Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)

And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

Revelation 1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.(Hebrews 1:9)

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[daqq]

Interesting daqq,

I've engaged in 2 former threads just on the passage of John 8:58, and a JW brother and I always defended the verse as NOT proving Jesus was YHWH, or the 'I AM' of Ex. 3:14,...as the verse is also indicating Jesus as admitting to be the 'Messiah',...as in 'I am (he)',. meaning the one Abraham was looking towards to COME in the future as the Messiah. But perhaps I am misreading your response here - as you know, trinitarian translators capitalize the 'I AM' in this passage with a trinitarian bias to make Jesus look like hes claiming to be 'Ehyeh', the name God spoke in Ex. 3:14, but we've provided much evidence against this 'assumption'. I guess we need to re-cap

John 8:24-25
24 I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ―, you will die in your sins.
25 They said therefore to him, You are who?[because they understood that he did not complete the "I am" statement] Yeshua said to them, That which I also spoke to you at the beginning!

John 8:12
12 Then Yeshua spoke again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[ok doser]

Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance....

:darwinsm:

 

[freelight]

John 8:24-25
24 I said therefore to you that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am ― ― ― ― ―, you will die in your sins.
25 They said therefore to him, You are who?[because they understood that he did not complete the "I am" statement] Yeshua said to them, That which I also spoke to you at the beginning!

John 8:12
12 Then Yeshua spoke again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: the one following me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Agreed,...but what Squeaky shared also addressed the issue of interpretation. You were just adding more light and clarification upon such? As you know,...some believe John 8:58 is referring to Ex. 3:14, to make it look like Jesus is claiming to be 'Ehyeh'! (YHWH himself!). I gather from our former discourse, you reject this mistaken identification. It would then carry out, that in all or most of the 'I am' statements of Jesus, that he does signify WHAT he is,....as light, bread of life, and other metaphors,...and at John 8:58 he is claiming to be the one that Abraham bore witness to, and was looking forward towards, meaning the Messiah. So Jesus was essentially saying, "before Abraham was born, I have been existing, as the Messiah in the Mind of God from eternity". - yes,...I am that one. I am (he) - do you resonate with these observations?

Oh, and indeed....Christ is LIGHT!

 

[daqq]

Agreed,...but what Squeaky shared also addressed the issue of interpretation. You were just adding more light and clarification upon such? As you know,...some believe John 8:58 is referring to Ex. 3:14, to make it look like Jesus is claiming to be 'Ehyeh'! (YHWH himself!). I gather from our former discourse, you reject this mistaken identification. It would then carry out, that in all or most of the 'I am' statements of Jesus, that he does signify WHAT he is,....as light, bread of life, and other metaphors,...and at John 8:58 he is claiming to be the one that Abraham bore witness to, and was looking forward towards, meaning the Messiah. So Jesus was essentially saying, "before Abraham was born, I have been existing, as the Messiah in the Mind of God from eternity". - yes,...I am that one. I am (he) - do you resonate with these observations?

Oh, and indeed....Christ is LIGHT!

Do you remember that song? In the mountain of YHWH it shall be seen.
All the "I am" statements are explained there.

 

[jsanford108]

I said
THE I AM DELUSION

xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

There is no allusion, evidence, or even a mild hint or suggestion to this theory anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

[jsanford108]

Hi jsanford

Can you provide evidence that a Trintiarian Christian view is any more morally or ethically, spiritually/philosophically correct or superior than a Unitarian form of Christianity? - what you basically got going is a doctrinal concept of God as a compound of 3 personalities.... in contrast to a purely monotheistic Unitarian God, who is Singularly YHWH, yet has a human Messiah-Son whom he anoints, empowers and fills with His Spirit, and joins to him other sons by adopting them into the Messiah thru spiritual regeneration, where they all become the SON, the Messiah (anointed hu-man community) of God. In both views, there is still one Spirit joining, anointing, filling, empowering, renewing! - God is One in reality, in both Unitarianism and Trinitarianism,...the only differences are 'conceptually', regarding the relational unity of God and his Son, and the Spirit that is shared in divine company. - some 'differences' noted are mere 'cosmetics'.

The fundamental truth and essence of 'God' and His Messiah-Son holds thru-out, no matter how much u deify or humanize the Son (slice, dice and splice as you please)....'God' Alone, as Pure Spirit, is 'God'. 'God' is not a man, although man is a creation of God, indwelt and sustained by God, in both image and substance, with immortality and perfection-potential within his own given sphere of possibilities. He is the steward of divine gifts and callings, and as a son inherits all that his Father has.

See: Meta-tation

Hello friend,

Absolutely. I would love most to reply to your questions. First off, I find your response to be the most scholastic and academic. Therefore, no offense to others, I respect it more. You have provided sufficient factors for your charges.

The Trinity is superior due to the hypostatic nature of Christ, and the eternally "oneness" of God/Christ. If Christ exists as a deity alone, then there is no true "human" sacrifice. Without this sacrifice, the standards and fulfillment of the Old Covenant could not be met or completed. The Covenant would forever lack the human element in its sacrifice. Therefore, a "New Covenant" would be insufficient because humanity would have to obey and fulfill two covenants, rather than one. This would only increase the burden that humanity would have to bear.

If Christ exists as a human alone, He would be a blasphemer. His several quotes of "I Am," would be truthfully labeled as blasphemy. The Jews would have been perfectly lawful and right to have slain Him. Add on to this, Christ saying "I and the Father are one." This would solidify the Jewish charges of blasphemy.

If Christ was two separate deities, being part man and part God, the first point of the Old Covenant being unfulfilled, would once again be true.

The only way to satisfy the Old Covenant, creating a New Covenant, and to be fully and wholly truthful, Christ would have to be fully God and fully man. Consubstantial with God the Father. This would render Christ as perfect and sinless. He would satisfy the requirements of the Old Covenant, have the authority to create a New Covenant, and be without blemish in any capacity.

From this, one can conclude that a denying of this Triune God is a denial of His attribute. A denial of any part of Him would be considered a sin, since one would be denying a whole aspect of God. God is always and eternal. All attributes have to exist together and at all times. A denial of one aspect or attribute is placing limitations on reality. In doing this, one would naturally deny other aspects and attributes, eventually leading to a god of one's own mind and limitations, restricted to one's ideal reality.

I hope this answers your question. Feel free to challenge me with any rebuttal or mitigating/aggravating claims.