No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[beloved57]

jr

But man CAN come after being called. Would you please acknowledge that fact?

Yes the man that has been given spiritual ears to hear, made alive, the saved man. The lost man cant believe the Gospel because its foolishness to him, 1 Cor 2:14 and its concealed to him 2 Cor 4:3-4. I have been explaining these things here for years sir. Man comes only after he has been drawn by God, thats not him naturally coming to Christ by his so called freewill.

You can call a dead man all you want he wont hear you sir !

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nothing false about God being the God of Election!

Not what I said.

Thats seen by His Sovereign Choice of Israel.

No argument here.

The bible is full of Gods Election.

We agree.

What we don't agree on is what "election" means. You think it means salvation.

I'm telling you that it means "called to accomplish a task."

The True God is the God of Election and Discriminate Love and Mercy

Chapter, verse.

Rom 9:13-15

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Does not say what you want it to say.

I have addressed the "Jacob and Esau," and the "love and hate" topics before. You've never even acknowledged those arguments.

If God decides to have compassion on the unelect, who are you to say otherwise?

Man naturally rejects this God

And yet, if God has called, a man can answer.

of Election of a particular people

Which has, as I said above, nothing to do with salvation.

to save by His Grace and Mercy.

I have no issue with this part of what you said.

 

[beloved57]

Not what I said.



No argument here.



We agree.

What we don't agree on is what "election" means. You think it means salvation.

I'm telling you that it means "called to accomplish a task."



Chapter, verse.



Does not say what you want it to say.

I have addressed the "Jacob and Esau," and the "love and hate" topics before. You've never even acknowledged those arguments.

If God decides to have compassion on the unelect, who are you to say otherwise?



And yet, if God has called, a man can answer.



Which has, as I said above, nothing to do with salvation.



I have no issue with this part of what you said.

I said men dont come to or seek after the God of Election and you said False !

 

[beloved57]

Not what I said.



No argument here.



We agree.

What we don't agree on is what "election" means. You think it means salvation.

I'm telling you that it means "called to accomplish a task."



Chapter, verse.



Does not say what you want it to say.

I have addressed the "Jacob and Esau," and the "love and hate" topics before. You've never even acknowledged those arguments.

If God decides to have compassion on the unelect, who are you to say otherwise?



And yet, if God has called, a man can answer.



Which has, as I said above, nothing to do with salvation.



I have no issue with this part of what you said.

You dont believe Election has anything to do with salvation ? Thats what it mainly has to do with, Salvation. What you think the election of grace means sir in Rom 11:5-6 ? Is that Salvation being discussed ?

 

[beloved57]

jr

of Election of a particular people

Which has, as I said above, nothing to do with salvation.

And you call this discussion, to make a blanket statement like that !

 

[JudgeRightly]

jr

Again, if you do not quote me, I won't be notified that you quoted me.

Yes the man that has been given spiritual ears to hear,

Chapter verse that says that the natural man does not have ears to hear.

There is none.

made alive,

One is made alive AFTER he accepts Christ. Not before.

the saved man.

A man is not saved until AFTER he calls upon the name of the Lord, which is AFTER he believes, which is AFTER he hears, which is AFTER he is preached to. As per 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, the gospel contains the calling of God.

The lost man cant believe the Gospel because its foolishness to him,

No, the lost man DOES not. NOT cannot. Do you not see the difference?

1 Cor 2:14

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;"
1 Corinthians 2:14a

and its concealed to him 2 Cor 4:3-4.

Only because he refused to see, and thus has been blinded.

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

I have been explaining these things here for years sir.

Doesn't mean you're right.

Man comes only after he has been drawn by God,

Where have I ever said otherwise?

thats not him naturally coming to Christ by his so called freewill.

Straw man.

I have never argued that a man can come naturally to Christ.

I have ALWAYS said that it is AFTER God calls him, that he has the ability (but not guaranteed) to come to Christ.

You can call a dead man all you want he wont hear you sir!

So therefore God has to deafen and blind the dead so that they cannot hear or see?

Lazarus was dead when Christ called Him. Are you saying that Lazarus just so happened to come back to life at that point in time, regardless of Christ calling him?

Or perhaps, could it be that when God calls someone, it inherently gives them the ability to respond, even if they are dead?

Why do you equate "dead" to being morally incapable of responding even to God's truth?

Dead means separated from God due to rebellion. It DOES NOT mean a lack of moral capacity to respond and return to God in humility.

We see this when Jesus, in writing to the church in Sardis, whom He calls "dead." They are believers! They have the ability to respond, yet Christ calls them "dead" because they are separated due their rebellion against Him! NOT ONCE does scripture tell us that "deadness" is in reference to a moral incapacity to respond to God's life giving truth.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I said men dont come to or seek after the God of Election and you said False !

I was referring to how you were trying to arbitrarily tie "election" to salvation.

You dont believe Election has anything to do with salvation ?

Correct. Election is simply being called to accomplish a task. That's what it means.

Thats what it mainly has to do with, Salvation.

Wrong.

What you think the election of grace means sir in Rom 11:5-6 ? Is that Salvation being discussed ?

Paul is talking about the remnant, the Jewish believers, who believed the Gospel of the Kingdom for Israel. Read verse 7.

jr

Supra.

And you call this discussion, to make a blanket statement like that !

When you make an argument without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence. That's how things work. Don't like it? Put more effort into your posts.

 

[beloved57]

jr

Chapter verse that says that the natural man does not have ears to hear.

There is none.

Thats lame, chapter and verse that says the natural man does have spiritual ears to hear. When you counter an argument without evidence it can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thats lame, chapter and verse that says the natural man does have spiritual ears to hear.

Sorry, but I asked first. At least be willing to admit that there aren't any.

When you counter an argument without evidence it can be dismissed without evidence.

Sorry, that's not how it works.

YOU made the claim that the natural man does not have ears to hear.

I made a positive argument, in RESPONSE to YOUR claim about the natural man, that there are NO verses that says that the natural man does not have ears to hear. My evidence is that the Bible does not contain any such verses. And I looked.

You are free to prove my dismissal of your argument sans evidence wrong, simply by providing a single verse that says such, but until you do, your comment is the one that is being dismissed without evidence, not mine.

 

[beloved57]

Sorry, but I asked first. At least be willing to admit that there aren't any.



Sorry, that's not how it works.

YOU made the claim that the natural man does not have ears to hear.

I made a positive argument, in RESPONSE to YOUR claim about the natural man, that there are NO verses that says that the natural man does not have ears to hear. My evidence is that the Bible does not contain any such verses. And I looked.

You are free to prove my dismissal of your argument sans evidence wrong, simply by providing a single verse that says such, but until you do, your comment is the one that is being dismissed without evidence, not mine.

A natural man is spiritually dead sir, so how can he hear spiritually ? Jesus told men that only those who are of God hears Gods words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He that is of God is the one having spiritual ears to hear, otherwise, men hear not, spiritually. Sure the natural man has physical hearing, and physical ears, but thats not what Im talking about. Always keep that in mind, we are talking spiritual things, not natural things here friend.

 

[JudgeRightly]

A natural man is spiritually dead sir, so how can he hear spiritually?

Again: "Dead" does not mean incapable of responding. It means separated from God.

That's how.

Jesus told men that only those who are of God hears Gods words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

He is correct.

He that is of God is the one having spiritual ears to hear,

Chapter verse.

Because there is no verse that says that man by nature does not have ears to hear.

otherwise, men hear not, spiritually.

Chapter verse.

Sure the natural man has physical hearing, and physical ears, but thats not what Im talking about.

Neither is it what I'm talking about. So why bring it up?

Always keep that in mind, we are talking spiritual things, not natural things here friend.

Duh...

 

[beloved57]

jr

Again: "Dead" does not mean incapable of responding. I

Yes it does spiritually, cause there is no spiritual life. Sure he may respond naturally, but that profits nothing, and it will be with enmity against God.

It means separated from God.

It means that as well, spiritually. The natural man is separated from God spiritually, that is death. Alienated from the life of God, no fellowship or communion ! The Gospel call goes out to the Spirtually alive who have spiritual ears, and the call is into fellowship with God 1 Cor 1:9

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dead folk cant fellowship with the Living Christ.

Also, im confirming what I stated about your lack of discussion on these matters, you dont have no discussion, you just make a statement, and call that discussion, you proved nothing with scripture, didnt even attempt to.

 

[beloved57]

In essence Jn 6:44,65 are saying no man can believe in Christ for Salvation unless its[belief] is given. Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Paul here is stating the same thing Jesus stated in Jn 6:44,65 !

Of course many men come to Christ carnally, but not Spiritually. Remember some believed on Christ because of miracles and He fed them

Jesus is saying man naturally lacks spiritually the will and ability to believe in Him, so really He talks against the man made doctrine of mans so called freewill. Man has not the ability because by nature he is dead in sin, dead to everything that is Spiritual 1 Cor 2:14. In the flesh, we as men are spiritually deaf, blind and sit in darkness Isa 42:7

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Lk 1:79

To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

While unregenerate we make our abode in spiritual darkness !

In this condition man cannot and will not come to believe in Christ. It must be given to man to believe in Christ !

 

[beloved57]

So coming to Christ, believing in Him is impossible unless its given to a man, which corresponds to being drawn by the Father, this confirms the understanding that Faith to believe in Christ for Salvation is the Gift of God Eph 2:8 , its through and by powerful grace, and not by the ability of mans freewill.

 

[beloved57]

So Jesus teaches what is called total depravity or inability as the T in Tulip !

 

[JudgeRightly]

jr



Yes it does spiritually, cause there is no spiritual life. Sure he may respond naturally, but that profits nothing, and it will be with enmity against God.



It means that as well, spiritually. The natural man is separated from God spiritually, that is death. Alienated from the life of God, no fellowship or communion ! The Gospel call goes out to the Spirtually alive who have spiritual ears, and the call is into fellowship with God 1 Cor 1:9

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Dead folk cant fellowship with the Living Christ.

Also, im confirming what I stated about your lack of discussion on these matters, you dont have no discussion, you just make a statement, and call that discussion, you proved nothing with scripture, didnt even attempt to.

All I have time for right now, will address this in detail later.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

Many Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith. They say that a person must be born again before he believes. They argue that new life comes before faith. John Piper, a Calvinistic p…

soteriology101.com

 

[Nanja]

Amen Excellent speech !

TY Brother !

 

[beloved57]

Coming to Christ necessitates Gods supernatural power [His Drawing] and not mans freewill so called Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Supernatural Power is the Grace of God through the Power of the Holy Spirit which is through the New Birth !

 

[marke]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !

The Scripture does not say, "No man can come unto me unless I make him come to me." Jesus says no man can come to Jesus until God first draws him and enlightens him so he can intelligently and willfully choose between life and death, heaven and hell, God or the devil, and so forth. But Jesus will draw all men until Him so don't think He intends to leave anyone out.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.