No blood needed

[Clete]

Do you think that Matthew 9:13 contradicts or nullifies Matthew 26:28?

What he's claiming is that Jesus' blood was spilled for all the little small sins that people don't commit intentionally.

If you sin on purpose, all that's needed is repentance and you're good! The blood is for all the stuff you can't repent of because you don't do it intentionally.

At least that's what follows from the nonsensical stupidity that he's posted. It's anything but Christian doctrine and he isn't the least bit interested in debating it. He will not respond with any substance to any arguments you make. The more effective the argument against him, the more silent his response will be. In short, he's a heretical lunatic.

 

[blackSand]

What he's claiming is that Jesus' blood was spilled for all the little small sins that people don't commit intentionally.

>>>Yes, God said blood to be shed only for unintentional sins as penalty. And if you unable to buy animals then handful flour is more than enough and if you can’t offered flour repent.
Merciful God have mercy on everyone rich and poor.
Almost all the prophets condemned the Jewsh leaders for this ungodly practice and asked them to stop.
Didn’t Jesus attack the temple and tun it upside down?
Yes my friend they killed him not as a sacrifice but as criminal because he was teaching against their practice, by him alive they will be bankrupt and lose all their influence on the people

If you sin on purpose, all that's needed is repentance and you're good! The blood is for all the stuff you can't repent of because you don't do it intentionally.
>>> yes sincere repentance enough to God to forgive. Ask king David who committed awful sins how he was forgiven? Did he slaughter animals. No
Did he shed any blood? No.

He only acknowledged his sins to God and he was forgiven. And he wasn’t only forgiven, he was close to God’s heart.
Jesus message was from the beginning: repent kingdom of heaven on hand.
God’s rule is: when you sin come back to me and you’ll be accepted.
Jesus in two of his parables indicate so about the two sons and the lost sheep.
Please study carefully these two parables and see God loves the sinner when he repent.
As matter of fact, God loves the sinners who repent more than the righteous who never sins.
Do you see how the father received his rebellious son who repent and come back?
Do you see how the shepherd left all the 99 righteous sheep and went after one went astray?
Do you see how happy he was to find her coming back to him?
These small stories were giving by Jesus to teach us and make it easy on us to understand God and what He required of us

At least that's what follows from the nonsensical stupidity that he's posted. It's anything but Christian doctrine and he isn't the least bit interested in debating it. He will not respond with any substance to any arguments you make. The more effective the argument against him, the more silent his response will be. In short, he's a heretical lunatic.

>>>calling me names because we disagree help no one
I am able too to do the same as you but I’ll never do it to you or anyone else.
Look what Jesus said about you at Matthew 5:22
If I am wrong leave it to God .
Have a good day

 

[Clete]

>>>calling me names because we disagree help no one

"Helps" not "help".

And I never call people names because I disagree with them but because they have demonstrated character traits that are in keeping with the names I choose to call them. People who are stupid, irrational, heretical or whatever SHOULD be embarrassed by their behavior. Such behavior should NOT be tolerated at though its normal and fine. It isn't normal and fine and I won't treat it as though it is.

I am able too to do the same as you but I’ll never do it to you or anyone else.

Liar.

Look what Jesus said about you at Matthew 5:22
If I am wrong leave it to God .
Have a good day

What Jesus said in Matthew 5 wasn't said to or about me but even if it were, I am not angry and if I were, it wouldn't be without cause!
I'm not here to leave heretical lunatics to God. If you were something other than a stupid lunatic, you'd engage the debate instead of repeating yourself endlessly no matter what anyone says to refute your heretical nonsense that cannot survive even a cursory reading of Romans 6-8 (or most any other scripture that touches the same subject).

Clete

 

[Jefferson]

>>>Yes, God said blood to be shed only for unintentional sins as penalty.

Paul said in First Timothy 1:13,14, "I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Blasphemy, persecuting people and being violent are not "unintentional" sins.

 

[Hoping]

>>>Yes, God said blood to be shed only for unintentional sins as penalty. And if you unable to buy animals then handful flour is more than enough and if you can’t offered flour repent.
Merciful God have mercy on everyone rich and poor.
Almost all the prophets condemned the Jewsh leaders for this ungodly practice and asked them to stop.
Didn’t Jesus attack the temple and tun it upside down?
Yes my friend they killed him not as a sacrifice but as criminal because he was teaching against their practice, by him alive they will be bankrupt and lose all their influence on the people

If you sin on purpose, all that's needed is repentance and you're good! The blood is for all the stuff you can't repent of because you don't do it intentionally.
>>> yes sincere repentance enough to God to forgive. Ask king David who committed awful sins how he was forgiven? Did he slaughter animals. No
Did he shed any blood? No.

He only acknowledged his sins to God and he was forgiven. And he wasn’t only forgiven, he was close to God’s heart.
Jesus message was from the beginning: repent kingdom of heaven on hand.
God’s rule is: when you sin come back to me and you’ll be accepted.
Jesus in two of his parables indicate so about the two sons and the lost sheep.
Please study carefully these two parables and see God loves the sinner when he repent.
As matter of fact, God loves the sinners who repent more than the righteous who never sins.
Do you see how the father received his rebellious son who repent and come back?
Do you see how the shepherd left all the 99 righteous sheep and went after one went astray?
Do you see how happy he was to find her coming back to him?
These small stories were giving by Jesus to teach us and make it easy on us to understand God and what He required of us


>>>calling me names because we disagree help no one
I am able too to do the same as you but I’ll never do it to you or anyone else.
Look what Jesus said about you at Matthew 5:22
If I am wrong leave it to God .
Have a good day

Can you give me an example of an unintentional sin?

 

[blackSand]

Can you give me an example of an unintentional sin?

>>> First, unintentional sin, any sin committed against God result from: ignorance, forgetting, anger or accident.

—you played Bingo not knowing it’s a gamble (ignorance)
—you light fire on Saturday thinking it’s Wednesday (forget)
—you were angry and divorced your spouse
—you hammer a pieces of wood, the hammer slipped of your hand hit someone else and killed him.
All these little sins does need a payment as offerings from goats, sheep, money, dove, fine flour as penalty must be offer to the temple.
You must notice it’s not only animals and blood.
But all other sins like murder, theft, disobedience to your parents or any sins done on purpose needs capital punishment or repentance.
Ther is no sacrifices for any sins done on purpose. Number 15:30,31.
If I cought speeding on the freeway, officer will issue a citation.
If I speed and and under the influence, I go to jail .
Sacrifices to remove sin are man made practice.
It’s not me who saying that. God said that in Jeremiah 7:22

 

[Hoping]

>>> First, unintentional sin, any sin committed against God result from: ignorance, forgetting, anger or accident.

—you played Bingo not knowing it’s a gamble (ignorance)
—you light fire on Saturday thinking it’s Wednesday (forget)
—you were angry and divorced your spouse
—you hammer a pieces of wood, the hammer slipped of your hand hit someone else and killed him.
All these little sins does need a payment as offerings from goats, sheep, money, dove, fine flour as penalty must be offer to the temple.
You must notice it’s not only animals and blood.
But all other sins like murder, theft, disobedience to your parents or any sins done on purpose needs capital punishment or repentance.
Ther is no sacrifices for any sins done on purpose. Number 15:30,31.
If I cought speeding on the freeway, officer will issue a citation.
If I speed and and under the influence, I go to jail .
Sacrifices to remove sin are man made practice.
It’s not me who saying that. God said that in Jeremiah 7:22

I can't corelate that with James 1:14;15?
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
If there was no temptation to sin, nor lust or enticement, there is no sin.

 

[Clete]

>>> First, unintentional sin, any sin committed against God result from: ignorance, forgetting, anger or accident.

—you played Bingo not knowing it’s a gamble (ignorance)
—you light fire on Saturday thinking it’s Wednesday (forget)
—you were angry and divorced your spouse
—you hammer a pieces of wood, the hammer slipped of your hand hit someone else and killed him.
All these little sins does need a payment as offerings from goats, sheep, money, dove, fine flour as penalty must be offer to the temple.
You must notice it’s not only animals and blood.
But all other sins like murder, theft, disobedience to your parents or any sins done on purpose needs capital punishment or repentance.
Ther is no sacrifices for any sins done on purpose. Number 15:30,31.
If I cought speeding on the freeway, officer will issue a citation.
If I speed and and under the influence, I go to jail .
Sacrifices to remove sin are man made practice.
It’s not me who saying that. God said that in Jeremiah 7:22

Nearly complete nonsense!

The bible talks at length about unintentional breaking of the law (i.e. "sins") but the notion that sacrifices to remove guilt being a man made idea is laughably idiotic!

Leviticus 6:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “If a person sins and commits a trespass against the Lord by lying to his neighbor about what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or about a pledge, or about a robbery, or if he has extorted from his neighbor, 3 or if he has found what was lost and lies concerning it, and swears falsely—in any one of these things that a man may do in which he sins: 4 then it shall be, because he has sinned and is guilty, that he shall restore what he has stolen, or the thing which he has extorted, or what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or the lost thing which he found, 5 or all that about which he has sworn falsely. He shall restore its full value, add one-fifth more to it, and give it to whomever it belongs, on the day of his trespass offering. 6 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering, to the priest. 7 So the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he shall be forgiven for any one of these things that he may have done in which he trespasses.”​

​

That's just one of dozens of such passages! Is lying, extortion or theft unintentional?

Obviously not!

I will never understand how people get so mired up to their neck in just plain old abject stupidity! I mean, how is it even possible for person who claims to have read the bible to utter the sentence, "Sacrifices to remove sin are man made practice." and not instantly detect that they've surely made an error (leaving the grammatical errors aside, obviously)? It seems like a mind that is that dysfunctional would forget to cause your eyes to blink.

Clete

 

[Clete]

I can't corelate that with James 1:14;15?
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
If there was no temptation to sin, nor lust or enticement, there is no sin.

Because there is no correlation. "Sin" can be used in more than one way. Moral infractions require intent but the law of Moses wasn't just about moral right and wrong, it was about civil justice and the societal rule of law. Thus, any infraction of the law was dealt with by the law so that you wouldn't have a built in incentive for people to intentionally remain ignorant of the law.

So it isn't his contention that unintentional sins exists that's at issue (See Leviticus 4), its his contention that the blood of Christ only washes unintentional sins away that is hideously false to the point of blasphemously. And the idea that blood sacrifice for the remission of sins being a man made idea is just so idiotic that there aren't words in human language to express it!

Clete

 

[Hoping]

Because there is no correlation. "Sin" can be used in more than one way. Moral infractions require intent but the law of Moses wasn't just about moral right and wrong, it was about civil justice and the societal rule of law. Thus, any infraction of the law was dealt with by the law so that you wouldn't have a built in incentive for people to intentionally remain ignorant of the law.

So it isn't his contention that unintentional sins exists that's at issue (See Leviticus 4), its his contention that the blood of Christ only washes unintentional sins away that is hideously false to the point of blasphemously. And the idea that blood sacrifice for the remission of sins being a man made idea is just so idiotic that there aren't words in human language to express it!

Clete

The "contention" is not only off base, it is moot.
Jesus didn't shed His blood for something that is not a sin.

 

[Clete]

The "contention" is not only off base, it is moot.
Jesus didn't shed His blood for something that is not a sin.

I agree but it really does matter just what you mean by the word "sin".

Leviticus chapter 4 (and several other similar passages) do talk about blood sacrifices being made to atone for unintentional (i.e. amoral) sins. All such blood sacrifice was symbolic of Christ's coming death at Calvary. The word "sin" literally means "missing the mark" and Christ's blood paid the price for all misses of the mark whether they were intentional or not as is clearly established by passage such as Leviticus chapters 4, 5 & 6. In short, Christ's blood washes us of all imperfection before God regardless of type, motive or means.

Clete

 

[Clete]

@blackSand,

Leviticus 19:20 ‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, a ram as a trespass offering. 22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.​

​

So I guess unintentional sex is a thing in your world?

 

[Clete]

@blackSand

How many of these am I going to find?....

Numbers 5:5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 6 “Speak to the children of Israel: ‘When a man or woman commits any sin that men commit in unfaithfulness against the Lord, and that person is guilty, 7 then he shall confess the sin which he has committed. He shall make restitution for his trespass in full, plus one-fifth of it, and give it to the one he has wronged. 8 But if the man has no relative to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution for the wrong must go to the Lord for the priest, in addition to the ram of the atonement with which atonement is made for him. 9 Every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring to the priest, shall be his. 10 And every man’s holy things shall be his; whatever any man gives the priest shall be his.’ ”​

​

Oh! Nope that's not all! The VERY NEXT SENTENCE....

​

Numbers 5:11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— 14 if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance.​

 

[Hoping]

I agree but it really does matter just what you mean by the word "sin".

I use John's description from 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin: "

Leviticus chapter 4 (and several other similar passages) do talk about blood sacrifices being made to atone for unintentional (i.e. amoral) sins. All such blood sacrifice was symbolic of Christ's coming death at Calvary. The word "sin" literally means "missing the mark" and Christ's blood paid the price for all misses of the mark whether they were intentional or not as is clearly established by passage such as Leviticus chapters 4, 5 & 6. In short, Christ's blood washes us of all imperfection before God regardless of type, motive or means.
Clete

I can't equate "immoral" with "unintentional".
If one doesn't know something is a sin while doing it, how can it be immoral?

I am glad we do agree that the blood of Christ can make us perfect.

 

[Clete]

I use John's description from 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin: "

I can't equate "immoral" with "unintentional".
If one doesn't know something is a sin while doing it, how can it be immoral?

It can't.

However, the word "sin" in scripture does not always refer to a moral infraction. Any legal infraction is called "sin" and people were held guilty of the crime whether they were morally culpable or not. Even accidents were often dealt with legally, particularly if someone died as a result (see Deuteronomy 19:5). It's a brilliant aspect of God's legal system that prevents people from actively avoiding knowledge of God's law and thereby pleading ignorance against any accusation of guilt. Not only that but it serves to teach the absolute moral perfection that is God's standard as well as the unbearable weight that the law places on men's shoulders, not to mention the incalculable value of a person's life.

Also, it should be kept in mind that what is done by the ruling authorities here on Earth is not the end of the story. God had all kinds of reasons to command the things He commanded in the law and many of them were only indirectly related to criminal justice. In short, God is the highest authority in existence and we draw our every breath at His sole discretion. He does not need a reason to end this physical aspect of our existence and bring us into the next and far more permanent phase of our existence. 500,000 years from now, no one is going to care any longer about when, how or why a particular person (aside from Christ) physically died because all will know that it was the God of all Creation who saw to it that all of the demands of justice were perfectly satisfied, one way or another, whether in this life or in the next.

I am glad we do agree that the blood of Christ can make us perfect.

Oh yes! All things are made new in Him!

 

[User Name]

>>>Matthew 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

What Does the Bible Say About Cleansed By The Blood?

Bible verses about Cleansed By The Blood

www.openbible.info

 

[blackSand]

It can't.

However, the word "sin" in scripture does not always refer to a moral infraction. Any legal infraction is called "sin" and people were held guilty of the crime whether they were morally culpable or not. Even accidents were often dealt with legally, particularly if someone died as a result (see Deuteronomy 19:5). It's a brilliant aspect of God's legal system that prevents people from actively avoiding knowledge of God's law and thereby pleading ignorance against any accusation of guilt. Not only that but it serves to teach the absolute moral perfection that is God's standard as well as the unbearable weight that the law places on men's shoulders, not to mention the incalculable value of a person's life.

Also, it should be kept in mind that what is done by the ruling authorities here on Earth is not the end of the story. God had all kinds of reasons to command the things He commanded in the law and many of them were only indirectly related to criminal justice. In short, God is the highest authority in existence and we draw our every breath at His sole discretion. He does not need a reason to end this physical aspect of our existence and bring us into the next and far more permanent phase of our existence. 500,000 years from now, no one is going to care any longer about when, how or why a particular person (aside from Christ) physically died because all will know that it was the God of all Creation who saw to it that all of the demands of justice were perfectly satisfied, one way or another, whether in this life or in the next.


Oh yes! All things are made new in Him!

Deut. 19:5-7
And this is the case of the manslayer who flees there, that he may live: Whoever kills his neighbor [a]unintentionally, not having hated him in time past— 5 as when a mangoes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he shall flee to one of these cities and live; 6 lest the avenger of blood, while his anger is hot, pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and kill him, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated the victim in time past. 7 Therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall separate three cities for yourself.’

>>> You overlooked verses 6,7.
unintentional killing needs not a sacrifice, fine or any punishment .
If all sins needs sacrifices, would you please list what kind of sacrifices king David offer to God to be forgiven?
Please never mind my grammar or spelling, I am aware of it, I promise I’ll do better as much as I can.

 

[Clete]

Deut. 19:5-7
And this is the case of the manslayer who flees there, that he may live: Whoever kills his neighbor [a]unintentionally, not having hated him in time past— 5 as when a mangoes to the woods with his neighbor to cut timber, and his hand swings a stroke with the ax to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he shall flee to one of these cities and live; 6 lest the avenger of blood, while his anger is hot, pursue the manslayer and overtake him, because the way is long, and kill him, though he was not deserving of death, since he had not hated the victim in time past. 7 Therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall separate three cities for yourself.’

>>> You overlooked verses 6,7.
unintentional killing needs not a sacrifice, fine or any punishment .
If all sins needs sacrifices, would you please list what kind of sacrifices king David offer to God to be forgiven?
Please never mind my grammar or spelling, I am aware of it, I promise I’ll do better as much as I can.

As predicted, this lunatic will not respond with any substance to a single argument presented to him. It's all slight of hand and shifting black sand. He will IGNORE any, all and every single syllable of scripture that presents an explicit counter example. They do not exist if he refuses to see them!

Clete

 

[Jefferson]

As predicted, this lunatic will not respond with any substance to a single argument presented to him. It's all slight of hand and shifting black sand. He will IGNORE any, all and every single syllable of scripture that presents an explicit counter example. They do not exist if he refuses to see them!

Clete

How true. I'm still waiting on him to respond to
First Timothy 1:13,14, "I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Blasphemy, persecuting people and being violent are not "unintentional" sins.

 

[blackSand]

How true. I'm still waiting on him to respond to
First Timothy 1:13,14, "I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. And the grace of our Lord overflowed to me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Blasphemy, persecuting people and being violent are not "unintentional" sins.

>>> This is exactly my point.
Sacrifices were only for small unintentional sins.
All other sins need a sincere repentance like king David did or capital punishment .
There is no sacrifices for international sins. Example the guy who collected wood on sabbath he was stone to death.