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[Aimiel]

I thought that the Lord wanted to be worship/magnified/exalted?

The Lord is worthy of more worship than all creation could ever put forth, and will be worshipped, eternally; but His Spirit isn't going about instructing people to worship Him, He is magnifying Jesus.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

But the 'wrods on the page', I.E. the bible is what people are reading; yet even though all believers (more or less) have a copy of the same book, there appears to be countless interpretations. Not translations, but countless ideas on what verses actually mean.

Jesus didn't come to this earth to bring peace (in this world, that is to say, peace as the world regards peace) but a sword. That Sword (His Word) divides, and causes polarization. It is this fire which is kindled in the hearts of men that Jesus came to ignite, but found already burning when He arrived. That purification process of believers disputing over The Word will drive men to Truth, rather than religion.

But His authority is compared against the bible, and then the bible is compared with his authority; again, it's circular.
It's like me saying, " I am right because I wrote a book that says I'm right. If you don't believe me, read my book."

No, it's more like intuition. The more you come to know His Word, the more you come to know His Spirit, and vice versa. They're One in purpose and agree 100%, always. Even when (and especially when) what The Holy Spirit instructs us to do flies in the face of religious dogma or doctrine previously thought to be sound.

I could produce verses (hundreds) that would challange the claim that the Lord, based on what the bible has to say, isn't creepy, contradictory and an invention of men.

I really don't see you making Him out to be something He isn't to be anything different than what the media and many others before you have attempted for centuries. Also, I'm sure God isn't scared. Just can't picture Him biting His Nails.

But, that may be too harsh; I can start another thread or you can tell me to go away.

Knock yourself out. I wouldn't tell you to go away, unless that's what you want. :box:

 

[Aimiel]

... if I don't believe in the validity of the bible, what good is it going to do you to quite the bible?

Besides demonstrating obedience to The Lord's instructions to preach The Gospel to every creature (no disrespect intended, but we're all creatrues) we sow The Word, which is seed. Some falls on good ground and some falls elsewhere. Personally, I believe that The Seed of The Word of God has the ability to crush the hardest stone into fertile soil, and the unique ability to spring up into a great tree which produces more seed than one could have imagined in places where everyone thinks nothing will ever grow. God is just Good that way (His Word is Spirit and Life to them that find It).

 

[EarnestBorg9]

.Jesus didn't come to this earth to bring peace (in this world, that is to say, peace as the world regards peace) but a sword. That Sword (His Word) divides, and causes polarization.

I see your point, but but it seems that you are saying that unity is not a goal of Christianity; that kind of thinking only serves to seperate, exclude and divide. So, instead of bringing people together, it tears them apart. I for one do not want to see people torn apart, but rather united in a singel purpose. That was we can advance make the world a better place for all.

It is this fire which is kindled in the hearts of men that Jesus came to ignite, but found already burning when He arrived. That purification process of believers disputing over The Word will drive men to Truth, rather than religion.

But the Word (bible) is clearly vauge and questionable; otherwise, there would be NO disputing! Biblical interpretation is a huge problem that I have because if it were the same spirit and message, there would not be hundreds of denominations.
The Spirit of God agrees with all of the denominations, even the ones the contradict the other. Just ask them if they are right! :LoJo:

No, it's more like intuition. The more you come to know His Word, the more you come to know His Spirit, and vice versa.

With all due respect, that is yet again another example of a circular argument; One cannot know God through the scriptues until He is in them. He cannot be in them until they believe. Once they believe, then they'll know Him.

I really don't see you making Him out to be something He isn't to be anything different than what the media and many others before you have attempted for centuries. Also, I'm sure God isn't scared. Just can't picture Him biting His Nails.Knock yourself out. I wouldn't tell you to go away, unless that's what you want. :box:

Haha, the media is the debil!
I'm sure that if there is a God, he is not hurt or offended by my unbelief. He's a Big Boy and can take care of Himself.
He may even be cool to kick back an hang with some time.

 

[Aimiel]

I see your point, but but it seems that you are saying that unity is not a goal of Christianity; that kind of thinking only serves to seperate, exclude and divide. So, instead of bringing people together, it tears them apart. I for one do not want to see people torn apart, but rather united in a singel purpose. That was we can advance make the world a better place for all.

You're right, too; since we need to, at the end of the day, agree with one another that Jesus is Lord, in spite of our differences. The Lord will mature and unite His Body as He sees fit. I like finding little facts in history like the one about Jews recognizing that even in the midst of persecution by the RCC they found friends who were believers in Jesus, who didn't think of Jews as enemies of The Lord, but The Apple of His Eye. One day true believers will be separated from those who merely profess Jesus and that separation will come in the form of martyrdom.

But the Word (bible) is clearly vauge and questionable; otherwise, there would be NO disputing!

I believe that a large part of God's design in making parables instead of clearly defined instructions is because He wants to re-use lessons, over and over, throughout history. He wants to cause men to seek Him, not beat each other over the head with rules and by-laws. He desires those whose hearts are pure, not people who merely know how to read.

Biblical interpretation is a huge problem that I have because if it were the same spirit and message, there would not be hundreds of denominations.

Apparently God loves diversity.

I'm sure that if there is a God, he is not hurt or offended by my unbelief. He's a Big Boy and can take care of Himself. He may even be cool to kick back an hang with some time.

Hopefully that will occur before it is eternally too late.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

You're right, too; since we need to, at the end of the day, agree with one another that Jesus is Lord, in spite of our differences. The Lord will mature and unite His Body as He sees fit.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree to that. I fully support your right to believe it and will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to protect that right; but I cannot agree with it.
If God like diversity though, what does it mean when it is said, a house divided against itself cannot stand?

 

[Lovejoy]

I'm sure that if there is a God, he is not hurt or offended by my unbelief. He's a Big Boy and can take care of Himself.

An interesting statement! However, you would have to make a case that this is a good thing. Is it, in fact, a sign of bignessif a father is not hurt by a lack of love from a son? It would be my contention that a "big" person would have the capacity to continue to love a son that does not love him back, but would also continue to mourn the loss. I believe the "prodigal son" parable tells us something of this. As to taking care of Himself, God can and does. The joy is that He is complete unto Himself, and yet still wishes to fellowship with us. Frankly, a disinterested supreme being is not the best situation.

 

[Lovejoy]

I am sorry, but I cannot agree to that. I fully support your right to believe it and will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to protect that right; but I cannot agree with it.
If God like diversity though, what does it mean when it is said, a house divided against itself cannot stand?

That was a house serving both good and evil, not different views of Scripture.

 

[Aimiel]

I am sorry, but I cannot agree to that. I fully support your right to believe it and will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to protect that right; but I cannot agree with it.
If God like diversity though, what does it mean when it is said, a house divided against itself cannot stand?

I didn't expect you to, I was speaking of believers. We don't argue over Who is Lord, within The Body of Christ, merely what His Word means, specifically, to each of us. If we thought, for instance, that Jehovah was Lord, and not Jesus, then we'd not be Chrisitan. If we thought that Allah was Lord, and has no son, we would also not be Christian. If we thought that Satan was god, we would not be Christian. Our 'house' has as its firm foundation, The Lord Jesus. If we were divided over that, there would be no house.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

An interesting statement! However, you would have to make a case that this is a good thing. Is it, in fact, a sign of bignessif a father is not hurt by a lack of love from a son? It would be my contention that a "big" person would have the capacity to continue to love a son that does not love him back, but would also continue to mourn the loss. I believe the "prodigal son" parable tells us something of this. As to taking care of Himself, God can and does. The joy is that He is complete unto Himself, and yet still wishes to fellowship with us. Frankly, a disinterested supreme being is not the best situation.

I can see that, it just always annoys me when a believer becomes indignant over someone like lil'ole me.
I would hope that if there is a supreme being, that he/she/it is above jealousy and hurt feelings. After all, what do I matter in the grand scheme of things?

 

[EarnestBorg9]

That was a house serving both good and evil, not different views of Scripture.

I should have known better than to quote mine, sorry about that, I retract the statement.
I have to say, I am impressed with the people that have replied to me so far, you all are very consistent in your beliefs.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I didn't expect you to, I was speaking of believers. We don't argue over Who is Lord, within The Body of Christ, merely what His Word means, specifically, to each of us. If we thought, for instance, that Jehovah was Lord, and not Jesus, then we'd not be Chrisitan. If we thought that Allah was Lord, and has no son, we would also not be Christian. If we thought that Satan was god, we would not be Christian. Our 'house' has as its firm foundation, The Lord Jesus. If we were divided over that, there would be no house.

I understand that; but there are other matters that I would think believers would agree on; predestiny vs determinism, once-saved-always-saved vs conditional salvation, a literal burning hell vs merely absence of the Lord in eternity, and others.
Mayne I am expecting too much, or more likely, that I am just an immature old man in my thinking.

 

[Lovejoy]

I can see that, it just always annoys me when a believer becomes indignant over someone like lil'ole me.
I would hope that if there is a supreme being, that he/she/it is above jealousy and hurt feelings. After all, what do I matter in the grand scheme of things?

(Deuteronomy 6:15) for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land.16
:shocked: :chuckle:

This is a bit more uplifting:
(Matthew 18:12) What do you think? If someone15 owns a hundred16 sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go look for the one that went astray?17

(Matthew 18:13) And if he finds it, I tell you the truth,18 he will rejoice more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.

(Matthew 18:14) In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that one of these little ones be lost.

 

[Aimiel]

I believe that God has given us what we need, time and again, and we have, in our haste and zeal, overlooked the greatest gifts, because they didn't 'feel' right. Too many, even in The Body of Christ, do what 'seems' right, and don't realize the punishment that they're headed for, by not making use of any of the things God has given them, or at least far less than they're capable of. I believe that, seeing this is what Paul referred to as in his latter years he began to get closer to The Lord and began to realize how truly despicable he was, eventually calling himself, "The Chief of Sinners." That is why I've adopted the nickname you see beneath my avatar, "Emperor-for-Life of Sinners." The more I find out about The Lord, the more I am responsible for; the more I am responsible for, the greater failure that I see myself. Also, the greater we see this (glorying in weakness) the greater The Lord will be capable of appearing and working on our behalf. You simply wouldn't believe some of the things that He will do with a yielded vessel. One time, I heard a Christian tell about how The Holy Spirit stopped them, in the middle of campus at Oral Roberts University (if you've never been there, you can't imagine how beautiful it is, the buildings, the peace, the land, such beauty makes paradise appear right before your very eyes) and He said, "Look around." The man did. He stopped, turned slowly, observing the buildings and the sheer beauty of what he could see from the base of the prayer tower. He then heard The Lord say, "This is what I can do with just one man, completely yielded to me. Think what I could do with an entire Body.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

(Deuteronomy 6:15) for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land.16
:shocked: :chuckle:

Out of curiosity, how can a perfect being be jealous? What is there to be jealous of? Also, how can a perfect being be angry? Anger is the loss of control and an attempt to regain control of your emotions. Is God so limited that he is prone to anger?
Ghandi, who was far from perfect lived his life without anger and violence and he was a mere man; isn't that a better example than 'getting mad'?

 

[Aimiel]

Out of curiosity, how can a perfect being be jealous? What is there to be jealous of? Also, how can a perfect being be angry? Anger is the loss of control and an attempt to regain control of your emotions. Is God so limited that he is prone to anger?
Ghandi, who was far from perfect lived his life without anger and violence and he was a mere man; isn't that a better example than 'getting mad'?

God isn't a stranger to feelings, despite all the rumors to the contrary. He is jealous of us 'whoring' around, worshipping false gods that don't even exist. His desire is for us. He desires that we should prosper and be in health. Not listening to Him isn't healthy or prosperous. He is capable of blessing and bringing men into relationship with Himself. He offers this to everyone living. Many refuse Him. It has to be frustrating, even though God is Holy. He cares more about us than we understand. He cares more about us than we do about ourselves.

Stop and think for a minute. If you were the only Diety that exists, and your creation were duped by the cunning of men and demons into bowing down before altars made to sex, drugs and rock-and-roll; if your people were foolish enough to ignore You and Your Words that you have given to them (they even have a copy of those words in their homes, but never pick it up or read it) but instead wanted to satisfy their animal urges and follow others who are more foolish than they are, wouldn't you be, at least, a little jealous?

God owns the whole earth. He created it out of nothing. His Word holds it together. Every single human being is His Creation. God is patient. He has been patient with sin, and with mankind's ignorance. That patience is going to one day run out. When it does, look out. His Anger will cause men to wish they'd never been born.

 

[Granite]

Out of curiosity, how can a perfect being be jealous? What is there to be jealous of? Also, how can a perfect being be angry? Anger is the loss of control and an attempt to regain control of your emotions. Is God so limited that he is prone to anger?
Ghandi, who was far from perfect lived his life without anger and violence and he was a mere man; isn't that a better example than 'getting mad'?

Jealousy can be construed as insecurity or overreaction. And the OT Jehovah, at least, seems very vindictive much of the time.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

I believe that God has given us what we need, time and again, and we have, in our haste and zeal, overlooked the greatest gifts, because they didn't 'feel' right. Too many, even in The Body of Christ, do what 'seems' right, and don't realize the punishment that they're headed for, by not making use of any of the things God has given them, or at least far less than they're capable of. I believe that, seeing this is what Paul referred to as in his latter years he began to get closer to The Lord and began to realize how truly despicable he was, eventually calling himself, "The Chief of Sinners." That is why I've adopted the nickname you see beneath my avatar, "Emperor-for-Life of Sinners." The more I find out about The Lord, the more I am responsible for; the more I am responsible for, the greater failure that I see myself. Also, the greater we see this (glorying in weakness) the greater The Lord will be capable of appearing and working on our behalf. You simply wouldn't believe some of the things that He will do with a yielded vessel. One time, I heard a Christian tell about how The Holy Spirit stopped them, in the middle of campus at Oral Roberts University (if you've never been there, you can't imagine how beautiful it is, the buildings, the peace, the land, such beauty makes paradise appear right before your very eyes) and He said, "Look around." The man did. He stopped, turned slowly, observing the buildings and the sheer beauty of what he could see from the base of the prayer tower. He then heard The Lord say, "This is what I can do with just one man, completely yielded to me. Think what I could do with an entire Body.

That was a very thought out reply, and I feel like a total @#!$%&! when I say this, but....'Oral Roberts?" The guy that extorted money (8 million I believe) from his followers? That he would be called home (die) if he didn't get it? I'd love to hear the justification for that; he has done a great deal to defame the name God than Anton LaVey could even hope to do!
I mean really, if we cannot searve two masters (God and Mammon), and money is thought to be mammon, than way did Oral do that? Either:
A) He lied and should have to give all the money back that he fleeced from his loyal followers or
B) He really believed God wanted to him pay up or else.
It may be just me, but I find both to be morally reprehensible.
Am I being too hard on Oral?

 

[Granite]

That was a very thought out reply, and I feel like a total @#!$%&! when I say this, but....'Oral Roberts?" The guy that extorted money (8 million I believe) from his followers? That he would be called home (die) if he didn't get it? I'd love to hear the justification for that; he has done a great deal to defame the name God than Anton LaVey could even hope to do!
I mean really, if we cannot searve two masters (God and Mammon), and money is thought to be mammon, than way did Oral do that? Either:
A) He lied and should have to give all the money back that he fleeced from his loyal followers or
B) He really believed God wanted to him pay up or else.
It may be just me, but I find both to be morally reprehensible.
Am I being too hard on Oral?

No.

Roberts is a completely repugnant con man, much as other Christian "leaders" and spokesmen are, who have made millions off the backs of others.

The entire pack of these charlatans deserves to be scorned and reviled at every opportunity. Shame on them.

 

[Aimiel]

Well the things which Oral Roberts University and Oral Roberts' Ministries has achieved far outweigh petty grievances anyone might have with someone who is human; even though when someone says they're Christian, many (including many professing Christians) think that means perfect in every way.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

No.

Roberts is a completely repugnant con man, much as other Christian "leaders" and spokesmen are, who have made millions off the backs of others.

The entire pack of these charlatans deserves to be scorned and reviled at every opportunity. Shame on them.

I agree but I also don't base my opinion of Genuine True Christinas on the actions of these professional beggers (cripes, I go all the way back to Bob Larson! I was a CC member!); if there is a God he cannot be held completely responsible for the idiocy of His/Her followers.