Moral equivalence

T

Truster

New member
ClimateSanity said:
MSM mainstream media as opposed to lesser financed and lesser well known media. BLM black lives matter organization built around idea that cops are racists and that blacks are only arrested because of their race.
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Thanks for that.

I always thought blacks were arrested because of their colour and not their race.Hence the term black and not African...
I'm also aware that blacks often say derogatory things about whites and never about the white race.
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
Truster said:
Thanks for that.

I always thought blacks were arrested because of their colour and not their race.Hence the term black and not African...
I'm also aware that blacks often say derogatory things about whites and never about the white race.
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The bottom line is that you cannot expect non biased treatment if you live in a violent ,crime ridden neighborhood and have the same crime rap sheet as those committing bigger crimes. If you get pulled over and you have a long rap sheet, expect cops to be on the defensive and quick to the trigger.
 
ok doser

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
ClimateSanity said:
I know you are trying to be sarcastic. You are a coward. Plain and simple. You have no idea what being a Christian means, so don't even try to judge something you don't have the faintest idea about. I just call you what you are. You are your filth have invaded this Christian site and effectively taken it over. You even have one moderator fooled since she equates feminism with Christianity. You are evil for what you and your ilk have done to this site and cawkroach is a mild term for your kind. Either answer the OP or get the hell of my thread.

For those interested, here are the cawkroaches. It is by no means exhaustive but it is the main ones who dominate every discussion here.

Rusha. Annabenneditti. Town Heretic. ArthurBrain.

The minor league includes
JonahDog. Jgarden. Horn. Gcthomas. Wizard of Oz.
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you forgot barbie
 
kmoney

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
ClimateSanity said:
I'm still waiting for one of you roaches to explain what you mean by moral equivalence when it comes to discussing Charlottesville.
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I think it's about the underlying principles. Yes, violence is bad on both sides, but one side is fighting for equality and the other side is fighting for oppression. To simply talk about both sides being bad it can gloss over the difference in ideology.
 
ok doser

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
kmoney said:
I think it's about the underlying principles. Yes, violence is bad on both sides, but one side is fighting for equality and the other side is fighting for oppression. To simply talk about both sides being bad it can gloss over the difference in ideology.
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is there room in america's "free speech" for oppressive ideologies?
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
kmoney said:
I think it's about the underlying principles. Yes, violence is bad on both sides, but one side is fighting for equality and the other side is fighting for oppression. To simply talk about both sides being bad it can gloss over the difference in ideology.
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Trump was asked to condemn the violence at Charlottesville. There was violence on all sides. Moral equivalence doesn't apply. Violence is violence no matter the motivation when speech is concerned. The unite the right people had a right to their speech no matter how repugnant it's message. It's wrong to use violence to suppress it. Trump never said the beliefs of all parties were morally equivalent. He said all sides were to blame for the violence and antifa is not on a higher moral plane than the Nazis for using violence to fight white nationalism. Actually, the Nazis are more moral for defending themselves against those who would suppress their speech than people who use violence to fight hateful ideologies.

That's what Trump meant and he is totally right.
 
J

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
ClimateSanity said:
I know you are trying to be sarcastic. You are a coward. Plain and simple. You have no idea what being a Christian means, so don't even try to judge something you don't have the faintest idea about. I just call you what you are. You are your filth have invaded this Christian site and effectively taken it over. You even have one moderator fooled since she equates feminism with Christianity. You are evil for what you and your ilk have done to this site and cawkroach is a mild term for your kind. Either answer the OP or get the hell of my thread.

For those interested, here are the cawkroaches. It is by no means exhaustive but it is the main ones who dominate every discussion here.

Rusha. Annabenneditti. Town Heretic. ArthurBrain.

The minor league includes
JonahDog. Jgarden. Horn. Gcthomas. Wizard of Oz.
Click to expand...

Oh my, I'm going to have to work harder to get to the majors, hunh?
 
kmoney

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
This came from the other Charlottesville thread but I'm moving it here since it's about moral equivalence.

drbrumley said:

Charlottesville, Moral Equivalence, and Donald Trump
By Walter E. Block
August 21, 2017


In the aftermath of the brou-ha-ha in Charlottesville, Donald Trump gave three reactions. First, he condemned all sides for the violence. But, he was met with such a screech of reaction from the main-stream media for his “moral equivalence,” that in his second go around, he pretty much, although not exactly, singled out the alt-right for special condemnation. But in his third time at bat, he reversed field (sorry for mingling football and baseball metaphors, I just couldn’t help myself) and again returned to a more even-handed stance, censuring both sides and all “extremists.”
What are we to make of this to-ing and fro-ing? Before we step into this land-mine, we must clear away a bit of brush. There are really two issues here; they are very different, but they have often been conflated. On the one hand is the question of Who is primarily responsible for the violence that ensued? On the other hand is the issue of which side deserves more moral condemnation, the alt-right or the alt-left. We can answer the former purely as social scientists; the latter, as libertarians.
I. Responsibility for violence?
So, which side is most blameworthy for the fighting? That is an easy one: it is the alt-left. Proof? Once upon a time, a long time ago (1977) there was a neo-Nazi march in Skokie, IL. That town was comprised to a large extent not only by people of the Jewish faith, but many who had personally experienced the horrors of the Holocaust. Was there any violence on that occasion? To ask this is to answer it: there was not. Why not? Because in them thar far away days, the alt-left had not yet begun their pattern of intimidation of the sort suffered by Charles Murray, Ann Coulter, Milo Yiannopoulos and other conservatives and libertarians. And not only them. The “antifa” has made a habit of protesting, with the use of violence, pretty much any and all verbal or other manifestations with which they disagree. Had the alt-left stayed away from Charlottesville totally and completely on the day of that march, the almost certain presumption is that there would not have been any violence committed, not any more, in any case, than occurred in Skokie in the long ago 20th century. The unwarranted and horrid death of Heather Heyer could have been prevented. This is not to excuse her cold-blooded murderer, but this young woman would not have perished did she not attempt to interfere with the free speech rights of others. Further, those two policemen who died in a helicopter accident would still be alive. As well, some dozens of other protesters would not have been hospitalized. Here is another bit of contrary to fact hypothetical history: if the neo-Nazis had been unarmed, and thus at the mercy of their ideological enemies, some of them, many of them, would have been hospitalized, if not killed. Peter Brimelow wrote “There will be blood” on VDARE (the link is no longer available thanks to the banning of this periodical’s output) warning that violence of the left would be met by counter violence on the right. In the event, no truer words were ever written.
Before considering which side deserves more moral condemnation, let us tip our hat to the ACLU. They were instrumental in protecting the rights of the neo-Nazis to march in Skokie, 40 long years ago, and courageously stuck to their guns in behalf of this group in Charlottesville this year. Free speech rights, they correctly assert, belong to all, no matter how odious or obnoxious the message. And, I might add there are few more odious or obnoxious messages emanating from any other group other than the neo Nazis, the KKK, et al.
II. Moral condemnation
The heroes of the neo Nazis are of course the National Socialists. Those of the anti-fa are the Communists, or the International Socialists.* When the Communists and the Nazis are at odds with one another, how is the libertarian to react? One possibility is to support both groups, in the hope that they will each reduce the power of the other, and thereby their own. Both are 180 degrees removed from the freedom philosophy. However, if finer distinctions are called for, we note that the Communists murdered far more innocent people than did the Nazis: Mao: some 60 million, Stalin, roughly 20 million, Pol Pot, about 3 million; Hitler, only an estimated 11 million. So, if we absolutely had to pick and choose (no such choice is incumbent upon us) the nod goes to the, gulp!, Nazis. Then, too, the Communists had a far more all-encompassing theory than their fellow socialist counterparts. As long as you were not a Jew, or a black, or gay, or Romany, and did not oppose them, the Nazis would leave you more or less in peace. The same cannot be said for the Communists. So, I agree with the critics of Mr. Trump for his so called “moral equivalence.” For the libertarian, the case for moral equivalence is weak. The left is to be more bitterly opposed than is the right.
Libertarians, of course, are neither of the right nor the left. We are unique. We maintain that the initiation of violence from whatever source, with no exceptions, is unlawful, uncivilized. Apart from the numbers of innocents murdered, see above, we take equal exception to the right wing National Socialists and to the left wing International Socialists. As to the alt-left and the alt-right, pale carbon copies of both, we abjure both. Equally.*We libertarians simply have no dog in this fight between the two of them.
What of the cry of some of the Charlottesville marchers: “The Jews will not replace us!” I am Jewish. I am a non-practicing Jew, but, for all of that, when and if, horrors!, the Nazis make a resurgence, here or anywhere else on the planet, I, and my family, presumably, will be on their list. Naturally, then, purely out of self-interest, I cannot help bearing a special animosity toward this group. I may be a member of the vermin, but I am a proud vermin. (For an alternative view of this phrase, “The Jews will not replace us!,” see here.)
And yet, and yet. I cannot help but note that most of my fellow co-religionists are socialists (of the international not the national variety). With the honorable exception of such eminent Jews as Ludwig von Mises, Murray N. Rothbard, Milton Friedman and but a paltry few score others (Chassidim by and large are another exception) members of this community overwhelmingly support the Democratic Party. They are disproportionately overrepresented among Hollywood, the mainstream media, and other institutions intent on undermining the “deplorables.” This is not to excuse their anti-Jewish animosity, but if we cannot even understand them, we are far less able to deal with them.



Excellent piece Mr. Block....
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Responsibility for violence - While it's probable that if the Unite rally had gone unanswered there wouldn't have been violence, I don't agree that the best answer is to simply stay home. And based on the accounts Heather wasn't "interfering" in their right to free speech. Other counter-protesters did, but not her. I support counter-protesters, but may disagree with some of their methods (Antifa).

Moral condemnation - I'm not sure what the death tolls of various regimes has to do with Charlottesville. :idunno: The moral equivalence being discussed isn't Stalin vs Hitler. It's the neo-nazis and their counterparts. And it isn't even about death tolls at all. The point about who they are OK with sort of gets at it but he seems to go off the board on the moral condemnation part.
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
If anyone still thinks antifa is morally superior to white nationalists and NAZIs, they should read the following:

But on the day, much responsibility rests with Antifa and Black Lives Matter. Antifa advocates a racial preference for DNA-authenticated “people of color,” the use of container ships to bring in scores of millions of non-white foreigners, the reduction of the white population of America to 30 percent and their colonial subjugation, and the nationalization of all major industries for operation at general communally shared benefit. Antifa reserves the right and proclaims the duty to achieve its goals violently and by intimidation of its opponents, as it prevented pro-Trump people from marching peacefully in an annual civic parade in Portland, Ore., in the spring, and an invited speaker from appearing at the University of California, Berkeley, in February. Black Lives Matter is unexceptionable in its championship of African-American pride, but has a faction that is overtly violent and specializes in murdering white policemen, as it has done in several cities in the past year. The president was absolutely correct to condemn these groups also for their conduct at Charlottesville. (I feel a hitherto unsuspected nostalgia for the comparatively gentle Saul Alinsky.
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

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For those who think it's conspiracy thinking to suggest Charlottesville was staged:

In the Charlottesville melee, it is now clear that Mayor Michael Signer, a radical Democrat and close associate of Clinton campaign manager John Podesta, who early declared his city “a capital of the resistance” (against the constitutionally elected president), intervened for some protesters and against others, ordered the police to facilitate violence at times, and changed his previous support for retention of the contested statue of General Robert E. Lee to a vote for removal. It was obvious to him and to close Clinton insider Governor Terry McAuliffe*that they could engineer a showdown between opposing extremes that had nothing to do with the merits of General Lee, but that could escalate the polarization in the country to the embarrassment of the president. It was a cynical exercise in political manipulation by very distasteful means, and has so far been partially successful.
 
annabenedetti

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Jonahdog said:
Oh my, I'm going to have to work harder to get to the majors, hunh?
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:chuckle: You're already there.

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kmoney

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
ClimateSanity said:
If anyone still thinks antifa is morally superior to white nationalists and NAZIs, they should read the following:

But on the day, much responsibility rests with Antifa and Black Lives Matter. Antifa advocates a racial preference for DNA-authenticated “people of color,” the use of container ships to bring in scores of millions of non-white foreigners, the reduction of the white population of America to 30 percent and their colonial subjugation, and the nationalization of all major industries for operation at general communally shared benefit. Antifa reserves the right and proclaims the duty to achieve its goals violently and by intimidation of its opponents, as it prevented pro-Trump people from marching peacefully in an annual civic parade in Portland, Ore., in the spring, and an invited speaker from appearing at the University of California, Berkeley, in February. Black Lives Matter is unexceptionable in its championship of African-American pride, but has a faction that is overtly violent and specializes in murdering white policemen, as it has done in several cities in the past year. The president was absolutely correct to condemn these groups also for their conduct at Charlottesville. (I feel a hitherto unsuspected nostalgia for the comparatively gentle Saul Alinsky.
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Where is that info on Antifa coming from?
 
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