Moral and Christian Misconceptions

[death2impiety]

I've been trying to "Do right and risk the consequences". This philosophy has caused me to loose quite a few friendships. Though I lament the loss, I know that this is simply the consequence of my desire to live for Truth! On to my point...

I always hear non-believers say that they think Jesus was a great person. I don't understand what it is about him that they find so great if they don't believe that he was the son of God. To a nonbeliever, Jesus can be nothing more than a lying, sneaky, insane individual. But maybe thats what they find so alluring :kookoo:

I recently took it upon myself to bring all my feelings to the surface which amounted in the form of a tiny debate. Unfortunately, (due to sheer ignorance) I have been stumped and left unable to defend my position. Maybe someone can shed some light.

Here is a post that "Kid Stoic" sent me regarding the debate.

"The really sad thing here is that people refuse to see the grace of Christ." -you in the last post

"I like Jesus of Nazareth. I think he was a great and very wise man, but the fact is that I've done my research and I don't believe he was God. I mean, if you look at the earliest written books in the New Testament, the 4 gospels, only the Gospel of John claims Jesus to be God himself. Furthermore, John's Gospel was the last of the gospels to be written (estimated somewhere around 70 A.D., compared to the Gospel of Mark somehwere around the year 40). In Fact, John was writing this in opposition to to other members of his community who were worshipping John the Baptist as the Messiah, to make Jesus look more superior. Similarly, the divine birth found in the later gospels was a common trait among stories of great men of the time. The current Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar's mother was purported to have been impregnated by a snake who had made his way into her you-know-what while she was sleeping. Now again, I'm not trying to knock your beliefs, just pointing out that there's two sides to every story.

Also, I wouldn't claim that truth doesn't exist. Merely, that people have argued since the dawn of civilization over what truth is. For one person to say they know the truth, without being able to prove it is a futile effort. I have an idea what the truth is, I can't prove it, but I have an idea. Since I can't prove it, I don't try to convince anyone of my beliefs.

And finally, just for the record, even if your religion is true I really don't think any of us non-christians are going to Hell. You see, the Jews (whose religion yours is based on) never even believed in Hell in the old days. Nor did they have stories of Satan. Hell was invented around the time of the prophet Daniel, somewhere around 500 B.C. during the Babylonian exile. Quick sidenote: when the Jews were freed by the Persian conqueror Cyrus after he defeated the Babylonians they believed that he was the Messiah for a few centuries. Not that it has anything to do with this convo, i just always thought that was interesting."

Well thats it... I really don't know what to say to him. It seem like his reason for disbelief is relatively circumstantial. If anyone has anything to say, I'd love to hear it. Thanks

B

 

[PureX]

Looks to me like he made his own case pretty well. Why not just accept and appreciate him for who he is, and respect his right to believe as he sees fit?

 

[death2impiety]

I see Christ as Truth and naturally want to lead others there. I am young and do not yet possess enough knowledge about the subject. If not so much to attempt to see my friend brought to the truth, I'd like to see what others have to say to obtain a stronger knowledge of my own belief.

 

[theo_victis]

are you trying to refute his statements?

 

[allsmiles]

I've been trying to "Do right and risk the consequences". This philosophy has caused me to loose quite a few friendships. Though I lament the loss, I know that this is simply the consequence of my desire to live for Truth! On to my point...

You're right. Cast off everything that makes you comfortable and accepted in this life, despise everything about yourself that makes you human and normal and seek to attain a goal that is infinite and incomprehensible in nature. Keep up the good work and send me updates.

I always hear non-believers say that they think Jesus was a great person.

He was.

I don't understand what it is about him that they find so great if they don't believe that he was the son of God. To a nonbeliever, Jesus can be nothing more than a lying, sneaky, insane individual. But maybe thats what they find so alluring :kookoo:

Whether he was the son of god or not makes little to no difference. There are nuggets of spiritual truth in his words that are accessible to all men of all faith, moslems, buddhists, hindus, etc.

I recently took it upon myself to bring all my feelings to the surface which amounted in the form of a tiny debate. Unfortunately, (due to sheer ignorance) I have been stumped and left unable to defend my position. Maybe someone can shed some light.

There's your first problem, taking something upon yourself. Let go of your ego friend.

Here is a post that "Kid Stoic" sent me regarding the debate.

"The really sad thing here is that people refuse to see the grace of Christ." -you in the last post

"I like Jesus of Nazareth. I think he was a great and very wise man, but the fact is that I've done my research and I don't believe he was God. I mean, if you look at the earliest written books in the New Testament, the 4 gospels, only the Gospel of John claims Jesus to be God himself. Furthermore, John's Gospel was the last of the gospels to be written (estimated somewhere around 70 A.D., compared to the Gospel of Mark somehwere around the year 40). In Fact, John was writing this in opposition to to other members of his community who were worshipping John the Baptist as the Messiah, to make Jesus look more superior. Similarly, the divine birth found in the later gospels was a common trait among stories of great men of the time. The current Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar's mother was purported to have been impregnated by a snake who had made his way into her you-know-what while she was sleeping. Now again, I'm not trying to knock your beliefs, just pointing out that there's two sides to every story.

Also, I wouldn't claim that truth doesn't exist. Merely, that people have argued since the dawn of civilization over what truth is. For one person to say they know the truth, without being able to prove it is a futile effort. I have an idea what the truth is, I can't prove it, but I have an idea. Since I can't prove it, I don't try to convince anyone of my beliefs.

And finally, just for the record, even if your religion is true I really don't think any of us non-christians are going to Hell. You see, the Jews (whose religion yours is based on) never even believed in Hell in the old days. Nor did they have stories of Satan. Hell was invented around the time of the prophet Daniel, somewhere around 500 B.C. during the Babylonian exile. Quick sidenote: when the Jews were freed by the Persian conqueror Cyrus after he defeated the Babylonians they believed that he was the Messiah for a few centuries. Not that it has anything to do with this convo, i just always thought that was interesting."

Well thats it... I really don't know what to say to him. It seem like his reason for disbelief is relatively circumstantial. If anyone has anything to say, I'd love to hear it. Thanks

B

How wonderfully concise.

Listen to Kid Stoic.

 

[death2impiety]

It's true, Jesus was a great person. Whether he was the son of God or not makes a huge difference. If you look at the actions that typify an individual who believes that they are God or the son of God (go to a local asylum...) it is not representative of the nature of Christ. He was a great man and did what he did and knew what he knew because of his divinity, because he was the righteous son of God.

(I don't know how to quote...)
you said, "let go of your ego."
Isn't that a difficult thing to say? Are you claiming that you've done this? Anyway, speaking about Christ to my friends isn't about my ego. It can be a difficult thing to do, and something that has brought about quite a bit of controversy and specifically a nice amount of anger toward me. It's not egoistic, its altruistic. I've sacrificed normalcy (along with ignorance) in my life for the greater good. I'm willing to take on the ridicule, pain and stress that I have to endure to let others know, sometimes harshly, about the truth.

His post was concise. However, a concise misrepresentation of the truth is nothing but another lie...

"You're right, cast off everything that makes you comfortable..."
I'd rather be uncomfortable, in a storm without a tent, with the knowledge that its raining than nestled up in a warm lodge with the belief that it has never rained.

Wish I had more time to reply. Thanks for the comment though.

B

Ps..If anyone else has a minute I'd love to hear some more...

 

[death2impiety]

are you trying to refute his statements?

yes!

 

[fool]

Have you considered the idea that Christ didn't exist?

 

[death2impiety]

Have you considered the idea that Christ didn't exist?

Of course. That was my subconscious belief for quite some time. However, the knowledge I've gained about origins and the reliability of the Bible have led me to believe that God is real and that the Bible, including the New testament is true.

 

[fool]

Of course. That was my subconscious belief for quite some time. However, the knowledge I've gained about origins and the reliability of the Bible have led me to believe that God is real and that the Bible, including the New testament is true.

Allrighty then, sounds like you've got it all figured out.
Why not let your friend figure it out for himself.
One quick question.
where did you gain this knowledge?

 

[death2impiety]

I'm not against letting people figure things out on their own. I do believe that sometimes we all need a little push. If a friend of yours is hungry trying to open a can of tuna will you not lend her a can opener? You'll say "she's seeking to quench her appetite"...what if she's anorexic?

where did you gain this knowledge?

Much of it was gained after I took an interest in reality and origins. I've read a few books on the subject. It's mostly the scant and usually erroneous "proof" of evolution that drives my faith...being that there is no alternative. I communicate with God daily and my faith and spirituality has grown to a point where I believe it is insurmountable.

May I ask you a question? When did you convice yourself that God does not exist?

B

 

[allsmiles]

It's true, Jesus was a great person. Whether he was the son of God or not makes a huge difference.

All right, on this I'll concede just a little bit.

It makes a bigger difference to christians. People who believe jesus was only a great guy, it doesn't really matter, we take what we need from him and leave. He serves his purpose to us and we become better for it. I don't thank him for it, and I don't thank god for it, I do what I do and my actions speak louder than my words.

If you look at the actions that typify an individual who believes that they are God or the son of God (go to a local asylum...) it is not representative of the nature of Christ. He was a great man and did what he did and knew what he knew because of his divinity, because he was the righteous son of God.

You're going to have give some examples or be a little more specific friend.

(I don't know how to quote...)
you said, "let go of your ego."
Isn't that a difficult thing to say? Are you claiming that you've done this?

I'm on the right path, but no, I still have one hell of an ego problem. I hope that by the time I'm 30 I have my wild years behind me. I think having children is going to do the trick, give me a chance to place myself second, maybe even third or fourth to others in a very intimate environment, force me into action. I cannot wait for children.

Anyway, speaking about Christ to my friends isn't about my ego. It can be a difficult thing to do, and something that has brought about quite a bit of controversy and specifically a nice amount of anger toward me. It's not egoistic, its altruistic. I've sacrificed normalcy (along with ignorance) in my life for the greater good. I'm willing to take on the ridicule, pain and stress that I have to endure to let others know, sometimes harshly, about the truth.

Listen, altruism in concept is a nice sounding thing, but you're witnessing to the people in your life because you obviously feel as though you have something to offer them, in other words, you have something that they don't. You're looking to add value to their lives, the key word being add. You've sacrificed your normalcy for the greater good, so you possess an element of your savior, that being his gift of redemption, it is no longer just his gift, it's yours as well in some small way. Transference of power from the god to god worshippers. It happens in almost all religions.

His post was concise. However, a concise misrepresentation of the truth is nothing but another lie...

Yeah, but you're looking at what he said as though it were a lie, a presupposition. You assume that he's lying so what he says are lies. Convicted as guilty before proven innocent. Give what your friend is telling you a chance. You can't see the whole picture if you're only giving the chance for legitimacy to one side of the picture. You're missing one half, even if in the end it turns out, to your point of view, that it's still wrong.

"You're right, cast off everything that makes you comfortable..."
I'd rather be uncomfortable, in a storm without a tent, with the knowledge that its raining than nestled up in a warm lodge with the belief that it has never rained.

Fine, but you'll be outside in the rain, we'll be inside next to the fire, and at that point the question becomes, "who does god love more?" Based entirely on what we can see and measure with our individual spirits of course. The answer isn't "you", the answer isn't "me", the answer is, "it is of no consequence, even if he loves us, even if he hates us. We are warm and dry, he is cold and wet." Reality, nothing but. That's all that matters friend, what we can measure with our senses and spirits.

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Sounds like neither you nor "Kid Stoic" know anything about the history of the Bible. If he's as skeptical as he claims, then he would be aware that most scholars consider Mark to have been written sometime between 65-80 CE ... and John may be as late as 100 to 125 CE.

Nevertheless, part of the problem is that you're taking the view that C. S. Lewis took when he developed his famous Trilemma--that Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. The problem that neither you nor Lewis saw is that such a description is only possible if we can be assured that the Gospels are an accurate account. Evidently, "Kid Stoic" doesn't accept that.

Justin

 

[fool]

May I ask you a question? When did you convice yourself that God does not exist?

B

I didn't

 

[PureX]

I see Christ as Truth and naturally want to lead others there. I am young and do not yet possess enough knowledge about the subject. If not so much to attempt to see my friend brought to the truth, I'd like to see what others have to say to obtain a stronger knowledge of my own belief.

Perhaps it would be wise to learn something about humility, before you go trying to lead other folks to the "truth". *smile*

 

[death2impiety]

You're going to have give some examples or be a little more specific friend. [QUOTE/]


Warning terrible language: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/chelmsford/26/RobbinLyrics.htm#3

This is an example I know off the top of my head of a person who thinks they're God. It's a bit extreme but it serves my point.

I'm on the right path, but no, I still have one hell of an ego problem. I hope that by the time I'm 30 I have my wild years behind me. I think having children is going to do the trick, give me a chance to place myself second, maybe even third or fourth to others in a very intimate environment, force me into action. I cannot wait for children.[QUOTE/]

Practice what you preach. Or don't... I suppose its up to you. God luck with your family.

Listen, altruism in concept is a nice sounding thing, but you're witnessing to the people in your life because you obviously feel as though you have something to offer them, in other words, you have something that they don't. You're looking to add value to their lives, the key word being add. You've sacrificed your normalcy for the greater good, so you possess an element of your savior, that being his gift of redemption, it is no longer just his gift, it's yours as well in some small way. Transference of power from the god to god worshippers. It happens in almost all religions. [QUOTE/]

you'd be totally correct if not for humility. Its easy to attribute all the work of a witness to pride when you arent seeing the big picture from the inside. Sure i have something to offer those around me: the knowledge i've obtained. its no different than watching a friend walk down a dirt path that you know leads to treacherous cliff and warning them prior. You don't tell them with an ego, attempting to lord your belief over them, you tell them for their own good in hopes that they'll change direction. Also, where you say:

You've sacrificed your normalcy for the greater good, so you possess an element of your savior, that being his gift of redemption, it is no longer just his gift, it's yours as well in some small way.[QUOTE/] Did I just smell an elephant? I've sacrficed normalcy to relinquish my long kept ignorance. It never goes past Christ. If it is your contention that the work of missionaries and evanglests is at least slightly for self satsifaction and personal reward I will have to let it be that; your contention. The work I do in witnessing, I do strictly for God. In fact often times i'm ignored which does nothing but tear down my ego. Isnt that counterproductive to an individual seeking to feed his own pride? The answer is yes. I am afraid you are wrong here.

Yeah, but you're looking at what he said as though it were a lie, a presupposition. You assume that he's lying so what he says are lies. Convicted as guilty before proven innocent. Give what your friend is telling you a chance. You can't see the whole picture if you're only giving the chance for legitimacy to one side of the picture. You're missing one half, even if in the end it turns out, to your point of view, that it's still wrong.[QUOTE/]

yes, you're correct. I agree fully, as I was short on time I couldnt give enough attention to that particular bit. I really meant it hypothetically. I have a bias against anything that opposes my belief so naturally I believe that his argument is wrong. Naive of me, yes, I can admit that. but hopefully I'll come across a more learned individual who can shed some light...which is why I started this in the first place.

Fine, but you'll be outside in the rain, we'll be inside next to the fire, and at that point the question becomes, "who does god love more?" Based entirely on what we can see and measure with our individual spirits of course. The answer isn't "you", the answer isn't "me", the answer is, "it is of no consequence, even if he loves us, even if he hates us. We are warm and dry, he is cold and wet." Reality, nothing but. That's all that matters friend, what we can measure with our senses and spirits.

Exactly, you'll remain comfortable in the ignorance you surround yourself in. I dont think the question here would be "who does God love more", but who is being tempted away from God by satan. I'd rather have a harsher outlook, based in reality than succumb to the "ignorance is bliss" modus operandi. But stay by that fire if you must.

Thanks for the comment.

Still looking for someone with the an idea about my original question!

 

[death2impiety]

"You're going to have give some examples or be a little more specific friend."


Warning terrible language: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/chelmsford/26/RobbinLyrics.htm#3

This is an example I know off the top of my head of a person who thinks they're God. It's a bit extreme but it serves my point.


"I'm on the right path, but no, I still have one hell of an ego problem. I hope that by the time I'm 30 I have my wild years behind me. I think having children is going to do the trick, give me a chance to place myself second, maybe even third or fourth to others in a very intimate environment, force me into action. I cannot wait for children."

Practice what you preach. Or don't... I suppose its up to you. God luck with your family.


"Listen, altruism in concept is a nice sounding thing, but you're witnessing to the people in your life because you obviously feel as though you have something to offer them, in other words, you have something that they don't. You're looking to add value to their lives, the key word being add. You've sacrificed your normalcy for the greater good, so you possess an element of your savior, that being his gift of redemption, it is no longer just his gift, it's yours as well in some small way. Transference of power from the god to god worshippers. It happens in almost all religions."

you'd be totally correct if not for humility. Its easy to attribute all the work of a witness to pride when you arent seeing the big picture from the inside. Sure i have something to offer those around me: the knowledge i've obtained. its no different than watching a friend walk down a dirt path that you know leads to treacherous cliff and warning them prior. You don't tell them with an ego, attempting to lord your belief over them, you tell them for their own good in hopes that they'll change direction. Also, where you say:

You've sacrificed your normalcy for the greater good, so you possess an element of your savior, that being his gift of redemption, it is no longer just his gift, it's yours as well in some small way.[QUOTE/] Did I just smell an elephant? I've sacrficed normalcy to relinquish my long kept ignorance. It never goes past Christ. If it is your contention that the work of missionaries and evanglests is at least slightly for self satsifaction and personal reward I will have to let it be that; your contention. The work I do in witnessing, I do strictly for God. In fact often times i'm ignored which does nothing but tear down my ego. Isnt that counterproductive to an individual seeking to feed his own pride? The answer is yes. I am afraid you are wrong here.



"Yeah, but you're looking at what he said as though it were a lie, a presupposition. You assume that he's lying so what he says are lies. Convicted as guilty before proven innocent. Give what your friend is telling you a chance. You can't see the whole picture if you're only giving the chance for legitimacy to one side of the picture. You're missing one half, even if in the end it turns out, to your point of view, that it's still wrong."

yes, you're correct. I agree fully, as I was short on time I couldnt give enough attention to that particular bit. I really meant it hypothetically. I have a bias against anything that opposes my belief so naturally I believe that his argument is wrong. Naive of me, yes, I can admit that. but hopefully I'll come across a more learned individual who can shed some light...which is why I started this in the first place.



"Fine, but you'll be outside in the rain, we'll be inside next to the fire, and at that point the question becomes, "who does god love more?" Based entirely on what we can see and measure with our individual spirits of course. The answer isn't "you", the answer isn't "me", the answer is, "it is of no consequence, even if he loves us, even if he hates us. We are warm and dry, he is cold and wet." Reality, nothing but. That's all that matters friend, what we can measure with our senses and spirits."

Exactly, you'll remain comfortable in the ignorance you surround yourself in. I dont think the question here would be "who does God love more", but who is being tempted away from God by untruth (Satan maybe..). I'd rather have a harsher outlook, based in reality than succumb to the "ignorance is bliss" modus operandi. But stay by that fire if you must.

Thanks for the comment.

Still looking for someone with the an idea about my original question!

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

D2i, you never had an "original question": just a debate partner who has stumped you. What do you want ... someone to hand you a good stumper to back him up with? Or do you want both of you to be able to find out what the truth really is--who's really right, and who's really wrong?

See, from here it doesn't look very much like it's about seeking truth, or even winning your friend to Christ. At this point, it looks like you're simply trying to win the argument.

 

[death2impiety]

D2i, you never had an "original question": just a debate partner who has stumped you. What do you want ... someone to hand you a good stumper to back him up with? Or do you want both of you to be able to find out what the truth really is--who's really right, and who's really wrong?

See, from here it doesn't look very much like it's about seeking truth, or even winning your friend to Christ. At this point, it looks like you're simply trying to win the argument.

Its just me looking for advice. Like if a friend of yours was intent on killing himself and had a great argument for why he should that you just couldnt topple apart from just saying YOU'RE WRONG! I don't know it all. My hope is that someone out there would know what to say to counter such an argument.

Believe what you will though.

Thanks for the comment.

B

 

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Its just me looking for advice. Like if a friend of yours was intent on killing himself and had a great argument for why he should that you just couldnt topple apart from just saying YOU'RE WRONG! I don't know it all. My hope is that someone out there would know what to say to counter such an argument.

I read your post, and see the sincerity ... I know that you care about your friend. But let me ask you this--what if the situation was simply one where a friend was making a decision that you thought was foolish or wrong.

What if it is you who are wrong, instead of your friend?

I'm not saying that this is the case ... but I am saying that unless you are willing to consider your friend's side of the discussion with the exact same gravity and seriousness that you expect of your friend, then no matter what excellent arguments you bring to the table ... it will not matter.