MODERN PHARISEES

[marhig]

It doesn't matter what you call yourself. Call yourself the Church of Nothing, then: you stand with Jehovah's Witnesses in denying the deity of the Lord Jesus, who was, in fact, Almighty God in the flesh.

You cults and lone rangers, with your private, contradictory interpretations and your own religious inventions that don't exist in scripture, are so very bereft of sound doctrine, even common sense.

You say Jesus is not God, but first an aside about this "judgmental" red herring deceivers always use. You claim you have some truth and out of the other side of your mouth that, somehow, God instructs us to suspend all judgment as to what is the truth, only when you don't agree, and more so when you disagree with God's inspired scripture? When you try to make God a liar? If that's the case, what is the point of having truth, as in a whole Bible's worth? Can you demonstrate in scripture where contradicting the truth of God is tolerated in any congregation, that you are even to congregate with liars, wish them God speed, any such ecumenical toleration of doctrines of devils and any tolerance of deceivers? Did the Lord Jesus or apostles say, "Let us all hold hands, go gather and sniff posies together with the deceivers, as, after all, how can we judge what truth is?" Maybe let's have a round of Kumbaya, in memory of Jonestown? In any event, back to the subject, as to this leaving judgment in God's "capable hands" (I'm sure God is properly sucked-up to and flattered by such lip service, though you deny Him, as some antichrist would), you have a real problem, as scripture states thus:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

You just said God is the judge. Scripture says Jesus Christ is the judge of all, not the Father. You are truly scripture challenge and need to make up your mind. To be consistent, you need to claim nobody is judge, then, not God, since the Father doesn't judge, and you deny Jesus Christ is God, yet scripture states the Son is the judge in all things. Otherwise, you've just said Jesus Christ is God, consistent with scripture, to call God the judge. QED

Do you not see you have no idea what you're even talking about? That you step on your own tongue and make a contradictory muck of scripture you fail to understand? Again, you don't know, even deny, your very God, do not know Jesus Christ, rather have a devil's confession, and you need to repent and get saved.

Tell you what, shall I show you from scripture clearly why I believe as I do? From Scripture and not from my own words and then you tell me why I shouldn't believe them?

 

[KingdomRose]

I said
How can anyone believe in the trinity with these verses?

Ah yes! I have asked the same questions! Usually my questions are ignored. No one has given good solid answers to those questions. How can they? They must change the subject, switching over to a tearing-down of one's religious affiliation.

 

[KingdomRose]

I'm well informed of what the JWs teach. I attended their Bible Studies as a youth. I have studied under Walter Martin in the 1980s. Here is a verse concerning the "Son of God":
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

You didn't pay much attention!

The verse as translated by the King James translation committee shows dire lack of adhering to the rules of translating from Greek to English. Grammar rules are different for English than they are for Greek. New thought??? You really haven't been paying attention.

There are two "gods" mentioned in the verse. The Word was WITH one of the gods, and the Word WAS one of the gods. Remembering that there are no capitals and also no punctuation in Greek, we go to the fact that there are NO INDEFINITE ARTICLES in Greek ("a" or "an"). So if a word has no DEFINITE article, it has to have the indefinite article provided by the translator. The first "god" has the definite article "the". The Word was with the god. The second "god" has no article, therefore "a" must be provided. It must read (according to The Emphatic Diaglott and other versions): "and a god was the word." It is plain to see that the two "gods" mentioned are not the same god.

A point to remember, also, is that the first century audience of John did not hesitate to refer to other men and angels as "gods," because they perceived in their minds that the title "god" merely meant a powerful, important individual. Even Satan is called a "god" (2 Corinthians 4:4). The Word was a powerful (power GIVEN by God), important individual, but not THE god.

Is this going over your head too? Or are you now prepared to pay attention?

 

[KingdomRose]

Yes, God does know the heart:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You may call Jehovah's Witnesses a denomination, but, by wide margin, mainstream Christianity considers Jehovah's Witnesses a cult, among others, with proven false prophets. If they're a denomination, so is Jim Jones, as he was also a liar that sucked in the gullible. You could paint your face and put on a red nose, proclaim you're the latter day prophet Bozo, come to rewrite the Bible and call yourself a denomination, but be prepared most would beg the differ: you're just a cult, with extra-Biblical false doctrines and false prophets.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These verses, alone, are crystal clear. As a matter of fact, all Jehovah's Witnesses do is try to rewrite them, as well as others. There is much other scripture, unlike a Jehovah's Witness even the likes of unregenerate Jews recognized the Lord Jesus claimed deity, John 8:58-59. Ironic how those the Lord Jesus called out as children of the devil, nonetheless, understood His claim of deity.

There's nothing to debate. If you're a Jehovah's Witness, you're a deceiver. What you need to do is admit that you don't believe the word of God of the inspired Holy Bible, that you choose to follow a foul, false prophet like Charles Taze Russell, have replaced the word of the Creator with the word of a creature, Romans 1:25, and realize the Spirit-filled child of God is always going to agree to disagree with you. If you're a Jehovah's Witness or supportive, in accord with them, 2 John 1:10-11, no difference, you're just a liar, the very deity of the Lord Jesus a primal revelation of the Holy Spirit, in the true believer. There's no point to debate for a true child of God, as you're just a deceiver and will continue to deceive.

For instance, you could jump up and down all day long, proclaiming the earth is flat, that you won't have it any other way, and a conversation with you would be wholly useless. There are already deity threads out the wazoo, that horse beaten dead so much so that the horse has turned to glue, all arguments presented. What you're really up to is trying to spread your cult beliefs, like ringing doorbells to try and snag some other gullible. Another debate is, in fact, stupidity, though there are plenty of trolls here who love disputing you can stumble into the ditch with. Fair enough?

What you need to do is to cease with your so-called debating against settled scripture, cease trying to diminish and discredit Jesus Christ, very God come to man in the flesh: that is, you need to repent of denying your God, repent of your lies and get saved.

So you are not prepared nor are you inclined to respond to posts #9 and #10? You do not choose to consider those points of view at all?

Your points that are "crystal clear" are not so clear when you pay attention to just how Greek should be translated into English, and it is high time for you to do that---pay attention.

JWs believe in the unadulterated Word of God, which you do not appreciate. Jesus was not the God of the Bible, but he was God's Son. You are not believing the Word of God. The Holy Spirit has not ever revealed that Jesus is God, and for you to continue to spew that trash is placing you in a very precarious position with his Father. You call YOUR view "settled Scripture"?? No, your view is not settled, but can easily be UNsettled, as has been shown on these threads, whether or not you want to pay attention.

Your statements are not welcome on my threads unless you honestly respond to ideas and questions that are profferred to you.

 

[glorydaz]

You didn't pay much attention!

The verse as translated by the King James translation committee shows dire lack of adhering to the rules of translating from Greek to English. Grammar rules are different for English than they are for Greek. New thought??? You really haven't been paying attention.

There are two "gods" mentioned in the verse. The Word was WITH one of the gods, and the Word WAS one of the gods. Remembering that there are no capitals and also no punctuation in Greek, we go to the fact that there are NO INDEFINITE ARTICLES in Greek ("a" or "an"). So if a word has no DEFINITE article, it has to have the indefinite article provided by the translator. The first "god" has the definite article "the". The Word was with the god. The second "god" has no article, therefore "a" must be provided. It must read (according to The Emphatic Diaglott and other versions): "and a god was the word." It is plain to see that the two "gods" mentioned are not the same god.

A point to remember, also, is that the first century audience of John did not hesitate to refer to other men and angels as "gods," because they perceived in their minds that the title "god" merely meant a powerful, important individual. Even Satan is called a "god" (2 Corinthians 4:4). The Word was a powerful (power GIVEN by God), important individual, but not THE god.

Is this going over your head too? Or are you now prepared to pay attention?

John 1:1 is your undoing. "One of the gods..." Holy Moly, you people have to reach and reach and still can't get your elbow to scratch your ear. :rotfl:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

The first and the last.

 

[glorydaz]

So you are not prepared nor are you inclined to respond to posts #9 and #10? You do not choose to consider those points of view at all?

Your points that are "crystal clear" are not so clear when you pay attention to just how Greek should be translated into English, and it is high time for you to do that---pay attention.

JWs believe in the unadulterated Word of God, which you do not appreciate. Jesus was not the God of the Bible, but he was God's Son. You are not believing the Word of God. The Holy Spirit has not ever revealed that Jesus is God, and for you to continue to spew that trash is placing you in a very precarious position with his Father. You call YOUR view "settled Scripture"?? No, your view is not settled, but can easily be UNsettled, as has been shown on these threads, whether or not you want to pay attention.

Your statements are not welcome on my threads unless you honestly respond to ideas and questions that are profferred to you.

Your posts are NOT WELCOME to many on this Christian Forum. You should count your lucky stars you're allowed to post here, instead of trying to dictate what is or is not allowed on any particular thread you are BORROWING to spout your heresy.

 

[Lon]

Oh no. We are out to preach what the Bible really says, not the pig slop that you try to make others believe is the truth from Christ.

Anyway, if you are so confident in your doctrines, why would you want my questions to go unanswered? Why do you not respond with Christian concern for my poor soul and reply to the points I ask about on my threads? You have no response, just silence, and you want me to shut up. That is very interesting, and very telling as to what condition your spirituality is really in. You judge me and say "you are not out to learn the truth!" Why don't you explain the truth to me anyway, particularly by responding to the questions and statements on my thread---"Jesus is not God" #1, which was locked? But you won't, and that is precisely like the Pharisees who covered their ears and stoned Stephen.

:nono: I've answered you many times (once again, just below so also a false-witness. You CAN be banned for that!). You were glad I left and disappointed when I came back later, remember? You know why? Because I 'can' refute JW nonsense and have. Others have too. I've seen it. Your thread thus, is a false accusation, we are just tired of answering you 'as if' in your warped mind (makes sense given your JW preoccupation) is correct, and we haven't REPEATEDLY addressed all of these inane concerns. Proverbs 27:15 See here there used to be 200+!!! :noway:

 

[Lon]

we [JWs} go to the fact that there are NO INDEFINITE ARTICLES in Greek ("a" or "an"). So if a word has no DEFINITE article, it has to have the indefinite article provided by the translator. The first "god" has the definite article "the". The Word was with the god. The second "god" has no article, therefore "a" must be provided. It must read (according to The Emphatic Diaglott and other versions): "and a god was the word." It is plain to see that the two "gods" mentioned are not the same god.

Is this going over your head too? Or are you now prepared to pay attention?

Oops :chuckle: JW or someone who knows? JW or someone who knows? :think:

Sadly, I've been over this and yet 'kingdom' flower suggests we are the Pharisees.... :nono:

 

[KingdomRose]

:nono: I've answered you many times (once again, just below so also a false-witness. You CAN be banned for that!). You were glad I left and disappointed when I came back later, remember? You know why? Because I 'can' refute JW nonsense and have. Others have too. I've seen it. Your thread thus, is a false accusation, we are just tired of answering you 'as if' in your warped mind (makes sense given your JW preoccupation) is correct, and we haven't REPEATEDLY addressed all of these inane concerns. Proverbs 27:15 See here there used to be 200+!!! :noway:

Sorry, you have NOT refuted anything I have said. I was glad when you made yourself scarce because it's tiring trying to have a discussion with someone who has his mind already made up that he will not even give ear to other ideas, and does not enter into any EXCHANGE of ideas. No one here has refuted anything, and it's dishonest to say that they have. They are all good at changing the subject or merely calling me names.

 

[Lon]

... you have refuted [every]thing I have said.

▲This ▲is the correct version. It doesn't matter your assertion, you are wrong and not able to really do discussion on an academic level. You just don't know what you are talking about and certainly aren't honest in your assessment. You are in a delusional cult, flower. I'm trying to help you out of it. It isn't good for you to be deluded and lied to.

I was glad when you made yourself scarce because it's tiring trying to have a discussion with someone who has his mind already made up that he will not even give ear to other ideas, and does not enter into any EXCHANGE of ideas.

Correct. I know what I'm talking about, you do not. You have been brainwashed by nonsense. JW's got a hold of you and messed you up.

No one here has refuted anything

Delusion, all your own. The rest of us are not JW's. It is like you've never read a cult-reference work in your life :noway:
JW's have been refuted at every point and franky, it is embarrassing to plug your ears and say :nono: You know better. Ignorance is no excuse.

and it's dishonest to say that they have.

Walter Martin before me. There have been many who have addressed JW accuracy. You are the one not being honest. You've never heard of these books? I've seen TOLers answer you clearly too, besides mine. I just addressed your previous post as wrong too! You didn't redress it. You are the one who isn't being forthright or honest. You are sold and a slave to JW's, not God. Think about that. "They" are wrong. God isn't. I have a thread that is hundreds of posts long. It addresses many of your posts, and concerns, if indirectly. Familiarize yourself instead of false accusation. It is not becoming of ANYONE who wants to come in the name of the Lord. If you are inaccurate or lie, or confused, it does not reflect on your faith favorably. It actually makes people shut you off and accomplishes nothing but posturizing and I suppose a feeling of 'superiority' as well as invites 'martyr-complex' that JW's are wrongly famous for 1 Peter 2:20; 3:17 No, if you are wrong, this is not suffering for 'doing good' but for doing wrong. You ARE responsible for any false doctrine you claim. Don't be deceived, you stand before God just as I do and Matthew 12:36 We stand for our own wrong words. Be VERY sure. I'm convinced JW doctrine is against the scriptures and nature of God. I will stand before God for this conviction as will you. God WILL judge between you and I concerning this matter. Neither you nor I can escape that...."Every careless word."

They are all good at changing the subject or merely calling me names.

Just don't think you are 'being persecuted for righteousness sake.' You and I are judged for being wrong and hurtful to Him as well. It is better to think harder on such than to continually shove your agenda down other's throats. This isn't a JW cite. It is one of few that allows and even welcomes you, but not for abuses. Abuse is its own reward NOT for 'righteousness' sake. I don't beat on JW's on their websites with the same thing over and over and over again. Yes, you've been answered and well, many times. At the very least, don't be a false witness about that.

 

[Zeke]

Dead letter dualism, where pride and condemnation reign as does you're god of those dead letters that cause you to hate another and condemn them, worldly based intellectualism and its step brothers raised on dead letters is the shallow end of the spiritual pool where respecter of persons wade till they get pushed into the deep end and drown that outer way of observation Matt 11:3.11:11 that is a kingdom under the sun of observation Luke 17:20-21.

Only the artificial person/pride/ego) cares if someone doesn't agree with their version of the dead way, your both still stuck in time which is the tree of good and evil, birth and death, right and wrong, love and hate, lost and found etc....

 

[Lon]

Dead letter dualism, where pride and condemnation reign as does you're god of those dead letters that cause you to hate another and condemn them, worldly based intellectualism and its step brothers raised on dead letters is the shallow end of the spiritual pool where respecter of persons wade till they get pushed into the deep end and drown that outer way of observation Matt 11:3.11:11 that is a kingdom under the sun of observation Luke 17:20-21.

Only the artificial person/pride/ego) cares if someone doesn't agree with their version of the dead way, your both still stuck in time which is the tree of good and evil, birth and death, right and wrong, love and hate, lost and found etc....

We've already talked about your own issues and abuses that affect your clear thinking. The REASON you are against Christianity is because you can't be one and embrace some of your poor habits. At LEAST don't lie to yourself about that. You are making up a religion that allows you to not have to change. Only God can change us. Come to Him. He alone, will make the rest plain as you become His. If He is truly your concern, this is the answer, not your feigned religion that hides under mountains in hopes He doesn't see. All we are is in plain sight of Him. There is no hiding anything.