MODERN PHARISEES

[KingdomRose]

What does it mean when someone is gagged because they speak of something that is different from what a majority of people believe? Does the fact that the majority believes something make it true? And why would these people who have gagged the odd-person-out want to shut this individual down without any discussion at all?

Why is there no attempt to perhaps reason with the individual, if they believe this person is wrong? Why not answer this person's questions? Why not try to show the person why the scriptures they present do not mean what the individual thinks they say? None of that was done. Just a lock on the thread. Period.

Is this not what the Pharisees did in the days of Saul and the disciple Stephen?

"Now when they heard [what Stephen said], they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him....They cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him." (Acts 7:54,57,58, NASB)

I perceive that the same thing is happening here. And they would stone the individual if they could get away with it. What say you?

 

[glorydaz]

What does it mean when someone is gagged because they speak of something that is different from what a majority of people believe? Does the fact that the majority believes something make it true? And why would these people who have gagged the odd-person-out want to shut this individual down without any discussion at all?

Why is there no attempt to perhaps reason with the individual, if they believe this person is wrong? Why not answer this person's questions? Why not try to show the person why the scriptures they present do not mean what the individual thinks they say? None of that was done. Just a lock on the thread. Period.

Is this not what the Pharisees did in the days of Saul and the disciple Stephen?

"Now when they heard [what Stephen said], they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him....They cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him." (Acts 7:54,57,58, NASB)

I perceive that the same thing is happening here. And they would stone the individual if they could get away with it. What say you?

No, it's not the same at all, because what you say does not cut the believer to the quick (which speaks of conviction by the Spirit). What you preach is contrary to the Spirit of Truth, and those who are filled with the Spirit have no choice but to call it out as blasphemy.

Be honest, you are a JW. They are not out to learn the truth. They, and you, are out to preach the teachings of your cult. The very fact that you compare yourself to Stephen is blasphemy, for you are the one who denies Jesus is God. You are the one who should be cut to the heart with conviction by the words Stephen (and believers here on this forum) speak concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings KingdomRose,

What does it mean when someone is gagged because they speak of something that is different from what a majority of people believe? Does the fact that the majority believes something make it true? And why would these people who have gagged the odd-person-out want to shut this individual down without any discussion at all?

Why is there no attempt to perhaps reason with the individual, if they believe this person is wrong? Why not answer this person's questions? Why not try to show the person why the scriptures they present do not mean what the individual thinks they say? None of that was done. Just a lock on the thread. Period.

I suggest that if the Moderators consider that this subject has run its course, then they are entitled to lock the thread, especially if the forum owners disagree with your oft-repeated subject. I notice on the front page a very long running thread called The Trinity which you have added some posts, then two of your threads with the opposite position that have now been locked, and another thread, say on page 4, but nevertheless the last post is still made in August 2017, which is still open with 1104 replies on 74 pages. If I remember correctly you started this last mentioned thread in opposition to a similar long running thread with a similar title, but stating the opposite to your title.

I state the above even though I agree with many of your concepts contrary to glorydaz’s view. I also believe that there is One God the Father and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We should be gracious to our hosts and their tolerance so far. I was banned on another forum because the moderator(s) did not agree with my persistent view, even though they and other forum members did not answer most of my suggestions.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[beameup]

The Pharisees were self-righteous. They felt that since they simply followed the Commandments, they were righteous. They were appalled that God would have to die for them.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

No, it's not the same at all, because what you say does not cut the believer to the quick (which speaks of conviction by the Spirit). What you preach is contrary to the Spirit of Truth, and those who are filled with the Spirit have no choice but to call it out as blasphemy.

This is so, and Romans 3:4. Scripture is quick to call a spade a apade where it involves false prophecy, which is, in fact, simply lies, Satanic. There's a huge difference between a Spirit-filled child of God seeking truth and one who has signed up for the lie.

Growing from a baby in Christ, there was scripture I didn't understand correctly, in whole Bible context. To this day, all I want is understanding, truth, no matter what that truth is, scripture harmony only, as all lies are fruitless, a waste, not even worth your brainwaves. Only God's truth counts for anything, at all, Proverbs 3:5-7, and lies are evil. This is to say I had to be corrected by my betters what the correct interpretation of some scripture was, in whole Bible context, many times rejoicing I was in error of understanding, in matters such as eternal security, for instance, or a scripture understanding of predestination involving being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus, things like this, where some scripture was difficult. But the point is, somebody shows you that you are wrong by scripture, you receive truth, rejoice in growing in the knowledge of God and truth, are eager to accept that true, peaceful and harmonious, understanding, most importantly as the Holy Spirit leads, that is, into all truth, not some truth, not half truth, as the Lord Jesus promised, John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All I've ever seen is the opposite of seeking Bible truth of the cult member, rather an insistence on the error of their false prophets. The discussions are never really about Bible truth, but an attempt to forward the lies of the false prophets, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses are charged to go around ringing doorbells, to try and get some other poor slob to signup that Jesus Christ is not God and the Watchtower Society are the chosen few: worker ants of lying false prophets.

I can only speak for myself in this regard, as it's contrary to what goes on with the web, but, aside from presenting the truth, one could spend their entire lives, disputing with liars: with regard to the web, the lies dominate. And incessant disputing is nowhere, not Christian, in many ways. The tares are out in full force, tearing at truth all day long, of course with no interest in accepting the truth, themselves, ever. It's not about learning the things of God, rather tearing down scripture truths. Some scripture comes to mind, involving the trolling liars, of any stripe.

We are not charged to park on the doorstep of the unbeliever, disputing with them until kingdom come:

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

We are not admonished to spend all day, disputing:

1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Obviously, a person who is all about the creature lies, not the truth of the Creator, doesn't even have the mind to receive truth:

Romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

In the case of the Jehovah's Witness, or any fake congregation, united in lies (they have plenty of company!), their case is they, indeed, do not glorify the Lord Jesus as God, v21, are vain in their imaginations and of a reprobate mind. Obviously, a person must first repent of the lie of the creature, to come to the truth. Therefore, what is even the point of a conversation with an unrepentant liar? What is the point of all these debates with tares, also is it even appropriate, at all, to engage in these long threads that endlessly dispute and make a platform the tearing apart God's truth? Sure, you bet they want a debate, as it's a stage to promote their lies. Yet the Lord Jesus commanded,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Is it not true that a person must first get saved, born again of the Spirit, to even understand scripture? So, what is the point of talking about, for example, the color scheme of a painting with a blind man, who's telling you there's no such thing as color, that everything is dark?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A lot of people need to get saved, first, then it makes sense to talk about the deeper things of God, but not until, and this must, obviously, start with repentance over believing the lie, which involves coming to agreement with God, seeking God and only God's truth, not chasing the creature, the false prophet. Until they repent, the wallowing in the mire will continue, and,

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Unfortunate, but what is the child of God charged to do?

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[KingdomRose]

No, it's not the same at all, because what you say does not cut the believer to the quick (which speaks of conviction by the Spirit). What you preach is contrary to the Spirit of Truth, and those who are filled with the Spirit have no choice but to call it out as blasphemy.

Be honest, you are a JW. They are not out to learn the truth. They, and you, are out to preach the teachings of your cult. The very fact that you compare yourself to Stephen is blasphemy, for you are the one who denies Jesus is God. You are the one who should be cut to the heart with conviction by the words Stephen (and believers here on this forum) speak concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh no. We are out to preach what the Bible really says, not the pig slop that you try to make others believe is the truth from Christ.

Anyway, if you are so confident in your doctrines, why would you want my questions to go unanswered? Why do you not respond with Christian concern for my poor soul and reply to the points I ask about on my threads? You have no response, just silence, and you want me to shut up. That is very interesting, and very telling as to what condition your spirituality is really in. You judge me and say "you are not out to learn the truth!" Why don't you explain the truth to me anyway, particularly by responding to the questions and statements on my thread---"Jesus is not God" #1, which was locked? But you won't, and that is precisely like the Pharisees who covered their ears and stoned Stephen.

 

[KingdomRose]

The Pharisees were self-righteous. They felt that since they simply followed the Commandments, they were righteous. They were appalled that God would have to die for them.

They knew that God couldn't die. They were appalled that ANYONE would have to die for them.

 

[meshak]

The Pharisees were self-righteous. They felt that since they simply followed the Commandments, they were righteous. They were appalled that God would have to die for them.

Claiming "I am saved" is not self righteous? I know it is.

 

[KingdomRose]

This is so, and Romans 3:4. Scripture is quick to call a spade a apade where it involves false prophecy, which is, in fact, simply lies, Satanic. There's a huge difference between a Spirit-filled child of God seeking truth and one who has signed up for the lie.

Growing from a baby in Christ, there was scripture I didn't understand correctly, in whole Bible context. To this day, all I want is understanding, truth, no matter what that truth is, scripture harmony only, as all lies are fruitless, a waste, not even worth your brainwaves. Only God's truth counts for anything, at all, Proverbs 3:5-7, and lies are evil. This is to say I had to be corrected by my betters what the correct interpretation of some scripture was, in whole Bible context, many times rejoicing I was in error of understanding, in matters such as eternal security, for instance, or a scripture understanding of predestination involving being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus, things like this, where some scripture was difficult. But the point is, somebody shows you that you are wrong by scripture, you receive truth, rejoice in growing in the knowledge of God and truth, are eager to accept that true, peaceful and harmonious, understanding, most importantly as the Holy Spirit leads, that is, into all truth, not some truth, not half truth, as the Lord Jesus promised, John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All I've ever seen is the opposite of seeking Bible truth of the cult member, rather an insistence on the error of their false prophets. The discussions are never really about Bible truth, but an attempt to forward the lies of the false prophets, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses are charged to go around ringing doorbells, to try and get some other poor slob to signup that Jesus Christ is not God and the Watchtower Society are the chosen few: worker ants of lying false prophets.

I can only speak for myself in this regard, as it's contrary to what goes on with the web, but, aside from presenting the truth, one could spend their entire lives, disputing with liars: with regard to the web, the lies dominate. And incessant disputing is nowhere, not Christian, in many ways. The tares are out in full force, tearing at truth all day long, of course with no interest in accepting the truth, themselves, ever. It's not about learning the things of God, rather tearing down scripture truths. Some scripture comes to mind, involving the trolling liars, of any stripe.

We are not charged to park on the doorstep of the unbeliever, disputing with them until kingdom come:

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

We are not admonished to spend all day, disputing:

1 Timothy 6

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Obviously, a person who is all about the creature lies, not the truth of the Creator, doesn't even have the mind to receive truth:

Romans 1

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

In the case of the Jehovah's Witness, or any fake congregation, united in lies (they have plenty of company!), their case is they, indeed, do not glorify the Lord Jesus as God, v21, are vain in their imaginations and of a reprobate mind. Obviously, a person must first repent of the lie of the creature, to come to the truth. Therefore, what is even the point of a conversation with an unrepentant liar? What is the point of all these debates with tares, also is it even appropriate, at all, to engage in these long threads that endlessly dispute and make a platform the tearing apart God's truth? Sure, you bet they want a debate, as it's a stage to promote their lies. Yet the Lord Jesus commanded,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Is it not true that a person must first get saved, born again of the Spirit, to even understand scripture? So, what is the point of talking about, for example, the color scheme of a painting with a blind man, who's telling you there's no such thing as color, that everything is dark?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A lot of people need to get saved, first, then it makes sense to talk about the deeper things of God, but not until, and this must, obviously, start with repentance over believing the lie, which involves coming to agreement with God, seeking God and only God's truth, not chasing the creature, the false prophet. Until they repent, the wallowing in the mire will continue, and,

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Unfortunate, but what is the child of God charged to do?

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

How can you judge that someone "has signed up for the lie" when it is yourself who has done so? You are looking at me with distorted lenses, and it is very sad. You talk about the "entire context" of the Bible. That is exactly what I consider---ALL of the Scriptures, not just one here and one there. You claim you want true understanding, no matter what that truth is, but you totally turn your back on Jesus Christ who is holding forth to you the precious truth about his Father and himself. You don't want the truth.If you did you would not dismiss me as having "signed up for the lie." That is disgusting.

Jesus Christ is NOT God and he is insulted by the blasphemous lie that he is God. You are in a very dangerous place, accepting the garbage that your clergy is feeding you. Jesus said that his Father is the only true God, and that he can do nothing on his own initiative, but only what the Father shows him and tells him and gives him. (John 17:3, John 5:19, etc.)

You are so right---with regard to the web, the lies dominate. Twice as many people here believe that Jesus is God, over those that don't. But I have peace knowing that Jesus predicted that the majority would be serving the god of this world, Satan, and their own destruction is on their own heads. All I have to do is try to tell them the truth.

Who did Jesus say that God was? Do you have a scripture for that?
Does the Father have a name? Do you care? Do you use His name? Jesus did.
Do you know what you'll do in heaven once you get there? The people who are really going there know exactly what they will be doing.
Do you have enough love in your heart to squeak out a few simple answers to these questions?

 

[marhig]

This is so, and Romans 3:4. Scripture is quick to call a spade a apade where it involves false prophecy, which is, in fact, simply lies, Satanic. There's a huge difference between a Spirit-filled child of God seeking truth and one who has signed up for the lie.

Growing from a baby in Christ, there was scripture I didn't understand correctly, in whole Bible context. To this day, all I want is understanding, truth, no matter what that truth is, scripture harmony only, as all lies are fruitless, a waste, not even worth your brainwaves. Only God's truth counts for anything, at all, Proverbs 3:5-7, and lies are evil. This is to say I had to be corrected by my betters what the correct interpretation of some scripture was, in whole Bible context, many times rejoicing I was in error of understanding, in matters such as eternal security, for instance, or a scripture understanding of predestination involving being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus, things like this, where some scripture was difficult. But the point is, somebody shows you that you are wrong by scripture, you receive truth, rejoice in growing in the knowledge of God and truth, are eager to accept that true, peaceful and harmonious, understanding, most importantly as the Holy Spirit leads, that is, into all truth, not some truth, not half truth, as the Lord Jesus promised, John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All I've ever seen is the opposite of seeking Bible truth of the cult member, rather an insistence on the error of their false prophets. The discussions are never really about Bible truth, but an attempt to forward the lies of the false prophets, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses are charged to go around ringing doorbells, to try and get some other poor slob to signup that Jesus Christ is not God and the Watchtower Society are the chosen few: worker ants of lying false prophets.

I can only speak for myself in this regard, as it's contrary to what goes on with the web, but, aside from presenting the truth, one could spend their entire lives, disputing with liars: with regard to the web, the lies dominate. And incessant disputing is nowhere, not Christian, in many ways. The tares are out in full force, tearing at truth all day long, of course with no interest in accepting the truth, themselves, ever. It's not about learning the things of God, rather tearing down scripture truths. Some scripture comes to mind, involving the trolling liars, of any stripe.

We are not charged to park on the doorstep of the unbeliever, disputing with them until kingdom come:

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

We are not admonished to spend all day, disputing:

1 Timothy 6

3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Obviously, a person who is all about the creature lies, not the truth of the Creator, doesn't even have the mind to receive truth:

Romans 1

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

In the case of the Jehovah's Witness, or any fake congregation, united in lies (they have plenty of company!), their case is they, indeed, do not glorify the Lord Jesus as God, v21, are vain in their imaginations and of a reprobate mind. Obviously, a person must first repent of the lie of the creature, to come to the truth. Therefore, what is even the point of a conversation with an unrepentant liar? What is the point of all these debates with tares, also is it even appropriate, at all, to engage in these long threads that endlessly dispute and make a platform the tearing apart God's truth? Sure, you bet they want a debate, as it's a stage to promote their lies. Yet the Lord Jesus commanded,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Is it not true that a person must first get saved, born again of the Spirit, to even understand scripture? So, what is the point of talking about, for example, the color scheme of a painting with a blind man, who's telling you there's no such thing as color, that everything is dark?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A lot of people need to get saved, first, then it makes sense to talk about the deeper things of God, but not until, and this must, obviously, start with repentance over believing the lie, which involves coming to agreement with God, seeking God and only God's truth, not chasing the creature, the false prophet. Until they repent, the wallowing in the mire will continue, and,

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Unfortunate, but what is the child of God charged to do?

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

You say that you believe the truth, and that you will listen to being corrected, and that you believe the words in the bible. So why call people false when they believe that Jesus isn't God? Especially when Jesus himself says that God is his God and father, and that he's the only true God, and his apostles call God the God of Jesus Christ too. So why shouldn't we believe it?

Also how can you judge a whole denomination as the same? Every person is different have we all have a different heart, I don't agree with the teachings of many denominations, but I wouldn't condemn all the people belonging to them, only God knows the heart.

Anyway, I don't believe that Jesus is God, because not only does Jesus say that God is his God, and that the father is the only true God, but the apostles also say that God is the God and father of Christ Jesus.

Look at Paul in ephesians 1, God the Father and Christ are separate. And this is shown in the rest of the verses I've quoted (below) and some show that the father is the God and father of Jesus Christ. And they clearly show that God is also the God of Jesus.

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,

And here

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Corinthians 11

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

Colossians 1

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 1

Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all


Romans 16

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Corinthians 13

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Galatians 1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

And this

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 6

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 4

But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Colossians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Thessalonians 1

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And the same is written in 2 Thessalonians 1

Also

1 Timothy 1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

Philemon 1

Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1 Peter 5

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1 John 1

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 1

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jesus isn't the father, (as the verses above show), he isn't God, and the father who is God, is his God and father of all as shown above!

 

[beameup]

Claiming "I am saved" is not self righteous? I know it is.

OK, how about "you're not saved". Does that make you feel better.
There are many cults that say you have to "earn your salvation".

 

[KingdomRose]

You say that you believe the truth, and that you will listen to being corrected, and that you believe the words in the bible. So why call people false when they believe that Jesus isn't God? Especially when Jesus himself says that God is his God and father, and that he's the only true God, and his apostles call God the God of Jesus Christ too. So why shouldn't we believe it?

Also how can you judge a whole denomination as the same? Every person is different have we all have a different heart, I don't agree with the teachings of many denominations, but I wouldn't condemn all the people belonging to them, only God knows the heart.

Anyway, I don't believe that Jesus is God, because not only does Jesus say that God is his God, and that the father is the only true God, but the apostles also say that God is the God and father of Christ Jesus.

Look at Paul in ephesians 1, God the Father and Christ are separate. And this is shown in the rest of the verses I've quoted (below) and some show that the father is the God and father of Jesus Christ. And they clearly show that God is also the God of Jesus.

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,

And here

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Corinthians 11

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

Colossians 1

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 1

Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all


Romans 16

To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Corinthians 13

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Galatians 1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

And this

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 6

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 4

But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Colossians 1

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Thessalonians 1

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And the same is written in 2 Thessalonians 1

Also

1 Timothy 1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

Philemon 1

Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1 Peter 5

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1 John 1

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 1

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Jude 1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jesus isn't the father, (as the verses above show), he isn't God, and the father who is God, is his God and father of all as shown above!

Excellent! I have noticed, too, that Paul and Peter and John and Jude, as well as Jesus himself, have all distinguished between God and Jesus. God is ALWAYS the Father, and it can be seen clearly by what you have brought out in your post.

 

[KingdomRose]

OK, how about "you're not saved". Does that make you feel better.
There are many cults that say you have to "earn your salvation".

No they don't. If you're referring to Jehovah's Witnesses, we do not say that you have to earn your own salvation. You obviously do not really pay attention to what is going on. JWs say over and over: First you have to accept Jesus as God's Son and the Messiah, and THEN you must live according to his teachings; they go hand-in-hand. It is not one or the other. It is BOTH.

 

[Squeaky]

Excellent! I have noticed, too, that Paul and Peter and John and Jude, as well as Jesus himself, have all distinguished between God and Jesus. God is ALWAYS the Father, and it can be seen clearly by what you have brought out in your post.

I said
Nobody has ever answered these questions for me. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. Jesus said that I have the very same Father, and the very same God that He does. Even Paul said yet for us there is only one God the Father.

John 17:1-3

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

 

[KingdomRose]

I said
Nobody has ever answered these questions for me. Jesus said the Father is the only true God. Jesus said that I have the very same Father, and the very same God that He does. Even Paul said yet for us there is only one God the Father.

John 17:1-3

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

OK, so what are your questions?

 

[Squeaky]

OK, so what are your questions?

I said
How can anyone believe in the trinity with these verses?

 

[beameup]

You obviously do not really pay attention to what is going on.

I'm well informed of what the JWs teach. I attended their Bible Studies as a youth. I have studied under Walter Martin in the 1980s. Here is a verse concerning the "Son of God":
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Also how can you judge a whole denomination as the same? Every person is different have we all have a different heart, I don't agree with the teachings of many denominations, but I wouldn't condemn all the people belonging to them, only God knows the heart.

Yes, God does know the heart:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You may call Jehovah's Witnesses a denomination, but, by wide margin, mainstream Christianity considers Jehovah's Witnesses a cult, among others, with proven false prophets. If they're a denomination, so is Jim Jones, as he was also a liar that sucked in the gullible. You could paint your face and put on a red nose, proclaim you're the latter day prophet Bozo, come to rewrite the Bible and call yourself a denomination, but be prepared most would beg the differ: you're just a cult, with extra-Biblical false doctrines and false prophets.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These verses, alone, are crystal clear. As a matter of fact, all Jehovah's Witnesses do is try to rewrite them, as well as others. There is much other scripture, unlike a Jehovah's Witness even the likes of unregenerate Jews recognized the Lord Jesus claimed deity, John 8:58-59. Ironic how those the Lord Jesus called out as children of the devil, nonetheless, understood His claim of deity.

There's nothing to debate. If you're a Jehovah's Witness, you're a deceiver. What you need to do is admit that you don't believe the word of God of the inspired Holy Bible, that you choose to follow a foul, false prophet like Charles Taze Russell, have replaced the word of the Creator with the word of a creature, Romans 1:25, and realize the Spirit-filled child of God is always going to agree to disagree with you. If you're a Jehovah's Witness or supportive, in accord with them, 2 John 1:10-11, no difference, you're just a liar, the very deity of the Lord Jesus a primal revelation of the Holy Spirit, in the true believer. There's no point to debate for a true child of God, as you're just a deceiver and will continue to deceive.

For instance, you could jump up and down all day long, proclaiming the earth is flat, that you won't have it any other way, and a conversation with you would be wholly useless. There are already deity threads out the wazoo, that horse beaten dead so much so that the horse has turned to glue, all arguments presented. What you're really up to is trying to spread your cult beliefs, like ringing doorbells to try and snag some other gullible. Another debate is, in fact, stupidity, though there are plenty of trolls here who love disputing you can stumble into the ditch with. Fair enough?

What you need to do is to cease with your so-called debating against settled scripture, cease trying to diminish and discredit Jesus Christ, very God come to man in the flesh: that is, you need to repent of denying your God, repent of your lies and get saved.

 

[marhig]

Yes, God does know the heart:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You may call Jehovah's Witnesses a denomination, but, by wide margin, mainstream Christianity considers Jehovah's Witnesses a cult, among others, with proven false prophets. If they're a denomination, so is Jim Jones, as he was also a liar that sucked in the gullible. You could paint your face and put on a red nose, proclaim you're the latter day prophet Bozo, come to rewrite the Bible and call yourself a denomination, but be prepared most would beg the differ: you're just a cult, with extra-Biblical false doctrines and false prophets.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
...
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

These verses, alone, are crystal clear. As a matter of fact, all Jehovah's Witnesses do is try to rewrite them, as well as others. There is much other scripture, unlike a Jehovah's Witness even the likes of unregenerate Jews recognized the Lord Jesus claimed deity, John 8:58-59. Ironic how those the Lord Jesus called out as children of the devil, nonetheless, understood His claim of deity.

There's nothing to debate. If you're a Jehovah's Witness, you're a deceiver. What you need to do is admit that you don't believe the word of God of the inspired Holy Bible, that you choose to follow a foul, false prophet like Charles Taze Russell, have replaced the word of the Creator with the word of a creature, Romans 1:25, and realize the Spirit-filled child of God is always going to agree to disagree with you. If you're a Jehovah's Witness or supportive, in accord with them, 2 John 1:10-11, no difference, you're just a liar, the very deity of the Lord Jesus a primal revelation of the Holy Spirit, in the true believer. There's no point to debate for a true child of God, as you're just a deceiver and will continue to deceive.

For instance, you could jump up and down all day long, proclaiming the earth is flat, that you won't have it any other way, and a conversation with you would be wholly useless. There are already deity threads out the wazoo, that horse beaten dead so much so that the horse has turned to glue, all arguments presented. What you're really up to is trying to spread your cult beliefs, like ringing doorbells to try and snag some other gullible. Another debate is, in fact, stupidity, though there are plenty of trolls here who love disputing you can stumble into the ditch with. Fair enough?

What you need to do is to cease with your so-called debating against settled scripture, cease trying to diminish and discredit Jesus Christ, very God come to man in the flesh: that is, you need to repent of denying your God, repent of your lies and get saved.

Blimey you're judgemenal! I can't believe that you would judge a whole denomination on your false doctrine. As I said God looks at the heart of each individual and not at the denomination. If you truly thought that our Lord Jesus was wonderful then you wouldn't judge others as a whole group, the word of God goes into each individual heart and God judges who has heard the truth.

As for false beliefs I think you need to look at what you believe, Jesus is not God and I've got plenty of verses to prove it, do you want me to show you some of them? I'll be glad to.

By the way, I'm not a Jehovahs witness, I'm not of any denomination, and I certainly wouldn't judge people because of their denomination, I just speak the truth and leave judgement in Gods capable hands.

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

By the way, I'm not a Jehovahs witness, I'm not of any denomination, and I certainly wouldn't judge people because of their denomination, I just speak the truth and leave judgement in Gods capable hands.

It doesn't matter what you call yourself. Call yourself the Church of Nothing, then: you stand with Jehovah's Witnesses in denying the deity of the Lord Jesus, who was, in fact, Almighty God in the flesh.

You cults and lone rangers, with your private, contradictory interpretations and your own religious inventions that don't exist in scripture, are so very bereft of sound doctrine, even common sense.

You say Jesus is not God, but first an aside about this "judgmental" red herring deceivers always use. You claim you have some truth and out of the other side of your mouth that, somehow, God instructs us to suspend all judgment as to what is the truth, only when you don't agree, and more so when you disagree with God's inspired scripture? When you try to make God a liar? If that's the case, what is the point of having truth, as in a whole Bible's worth? Can you demonstrate in scripture where contradicting the truth of God is tolerated in any congregation, that you are even to congregate with liars, wish them God speed, any such ecumenical toleration of doctrines of devils and any tolerance of deceivers? Did the Lord Jesus or apostles say, "Let us all hold hands, go gather and sniff posies together with the deceivers, as, after all, how can we judge what truth is?" Maybe let's have a round of Kumbaya, in memory of Jonestown? In any event, back to the subject, as to this leaving judgment in God's "capable hands" (I'm sure God is properly sucked-up to and flattered by such lip service, though you deny Him, as some antichrist would), you have a real problem, as scripture states thus:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

You just said God is the judge. Scripture says Jesus Christ is the judge of all, not the Father. You are truly scripture challenge and need to make up your mind. To be consistent, you need to claim nobody is judge, then, not God, since the Father doesn't judge, and you deny Jesus Christ is God, yet scripture states the Son is the judge in all things. Otherwise, you've just said Jesus Christ is God, consistent with scripture, to call God the judge. QED

Do you not see you have no idea what you're even talking about? That you step on your own tongue and make a contradictory muck of scripture you fail to understand? Again, you don't know, even deny, your very God, do not know Jesus Christ, rather have a devil's confession, and you need to repent and get saved.