Miracles, healings of God, or of Satan

[glorydaz]

I've read reports, and if they are true, then GOD is making exception in those cases to confirm the gospel of the cross to those who have been isolated from exposure to the message from countless generations.
Still, if true, these events are not commonplace to this age, but testify of the age to come.

If the miracles of the 1st century are commonplace today, why do countless saints suffer as paraplegics, etc, all of their lives. Why would GOD only single out certain ones in far off lands for these blessings if He means for all to have them today?
Peter and the eleven healed all in Acts 5 and that assembly held all things in common and no one lacked.
Is that what we see today? If GOD intends for all believers to do these miracles then why are we not emptying the hospitals? True healing will happen in the resurrection. Death of the body is still 'one a piece' today. Why did Paul glory in his infirmities? Why did GOD not heal him? Why did Paul leave Trophimus at Melitus sick? Why did Paul not heal Timothy but instead advise him to take a little wine for his stomach sake and his often infirmities?

The missionaries out in the field today PRAY and their prayers are being answered. That is not the same as was happening during the days of the apostles, as you stated quite nicely.

 

[Rosenritter]

I've read reports, and if they are true, then GOD is making exception in those cases to confirm the gospel of the cross to those who have been isolated from exposure to the message from countless generations.
Still, if true, these events are not commonplace to this age, but testify of the age to come.

If the miracles of the 1st century are commonplace today, why do countless saints suffer as paraplegics, etc, all of their lives. Why would GOD only single out certain ones in far off lands for these blessings if He means for all to have them today?
Peter and the eleven healed all in Acts 5 and that assembly held all things in common and no one lacked.
Is that what we see today? If GOD intends for all believers to do these miracles then why are we not emptying the hospitals? True healing will happen in the resurrection. Death of the body is still 'one a piece' today. Why did Paul glory in his infirmities? Why did GOD not heal him? Why did Paul leave Trophimus at Melitus sick? Why did Paul not heal Timothy but instead advise him to take a little wine for his stomach sake and his often infirmities?

I only objected to a conclusion that excluded miracles, not the general reasoning that you used for support. You clarified since that you didn't mean to exclude the possibility of miracle.

 

[steko]

I only objected to a conclusion that excluded miracles, not the general reasoning that you used for support. You clarified since that you didn't mean to exclude the possibility of miracle.

:thumb:

Yeah, I believe in salvation, a miracle.
I believe in answered prayer, a miracle.
I've witnessed deliverances from harm in my life and others which I can only describe as miraculous.
I've witnessed the coordination of circumstances and events that I can only ascribe to bizarre coincidence or the hand of GOD.

 

[glorydaz]

:thumb:

Yeah, I believe in salvation, a miracle.
I believe in answered prayer, a miracle.
I've witnessed deliverances from harm in my life and others which I can only describe as miraculous.
I've witnessed the coordination of circumstances and events that I can only ascribe to bizarre coincidence or the hand of GOD.

Indeed, and not signs and wonders performed by the hands of the Apostles.

Men are not, at present, in the miracle performing business.

 

[7djengo7]

If only two people were present, does that make the miracle not a miracle?

If two or more people were present, does that make the non-miracle a miracle?

(See, that isn't the right type of question.)

 

[Aaron the Tall]

My original post:


Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Are you doing those things? I'm not... and I don't know anyone who is.

I have heard of miracles. Maybe we don't see more because it has long been taught that you shouldn't be seeing them.

What scriptural reasons do you have for saying sign miracles are no longer in operation today? Your personal awareness of miracles is not sufficient evidence to say they are no longer in operation.

Again... today, we are asked to believe the testimony of Scripture with regard to these things, not empirical proofs as demonstrated back then.

Where exactly are we told not to believe in empirical proofs anymore?

If believers today are demonstrating the miraculous as demonstrated in Acts, then... what message are they confirming? That they are Christ? That they are an Apostle? That people need to follow and obey them? Isn't the Anti-Christ supposed to be going to do these things?

Did only apostles do miracles in the NT? When the non-apostles performed miracles in the NT, were they doing them so people would follow and obey them? or to confirm the truth of the Word?

 

[glorydaz]

I have heard of miracles. Maybe we don't see more because it has long been taught that you shouldn't be seeing them.

That can't be it because there are Pentecostals that see their teeth being filled with gold without going to a dentist.

 

[7djengo7]

I have heard of miracles. Maybe we don't see more because it has long been taught that you shouldn't be seeing them.

What scriptural reasons do you have for saying sign miracles are no longer in operation today? Your personal awareness of miracles is not sufficient evidence to say they are no longer in operation.



Where exactly are we told not to believe in empirical proofs anymore?



Did only apostles do miracles in the NT? When the non-apostles performed miracles in the NT, were they doing them so people would follow and obey them? or to confirm the truth of the Word?

Are you doing any miracles? What miracles have you done?

Are you saying that miracles are empirical proofs? Empirical proofs of what?

 

[7djengo7]

That can't be it because there are Pentecostals that see their teeth being filled with gold without going to a dentist.

Dentacostals?

 

[steko]

That can't be it because there are Pentecostals that see their teeth being filled with gold without going to a dentist.

Which is more difficult, filling teeth with gold or providing a whole new set of teeth?

I mean, if we have a choice of miracles, I'll take the teeth.

For that matter, how 'bout fixing my right shoulder?

Oh, what th' heck, just give me a whole new body.

Oh yeah, seems like I've heard something about that before.

 

[glorydaz]

Which is more difficult, filling teeth with gold or providing a whole new set of teeth?

I mean, if we have a choice of miracles, I'll take the teeth.

For that matter, how 'bout fixing my right shoulder?

Oh, what th' heck, just give me a whole new body.

Oh yeah, seems like I've heard something about that before.

Exactly what I thought at the time. Why not just a new tooth....

That's the same time period when a gal started speaking in "tongues" and then she interpreted those tongues going off into, "I praise you, Lord..." Then she had to stop and admit she'd been carried away because she was supposed to be interpreting what those spiritual tongues were saying.

It was a small town, but I decided I'd have to find a women's group somewhere else. :chuckle:

But, seriously, we don't have any "healers" running around the country for a good reason. Lots of claims, but no dead guys being raised on cell phone videos and no one walking on water unless the photo has been photo shopped.

 

[steko]

I have heard of miracles.

Me too!

Maybe we don't see more because it has long been taught that you shouldn't be seeing them.

My experience is that it's long been taught that we should be seeing them.

What scriptural reasons do you have for saying sign miracles are no longer in operation today?

I've given scriptural reasons.

Your personal awareness of miracles is not sufficient evidence to say they are no longer in operation.

Certainly not.

Where exactly are we told not to believe in empirical proofs anymore?

I have no idea.

I would love to see them.

Did only apostles do miracles in the NT?

No, but mostly.

When the non-apostles performed miracles in the NT, were they doing them so people would follow and obey them?

I don't know.

or to confirm the truth of the Word?

Likely, sometimes.

 

[Rosenritter]

If two or more people were present, does that make the non-miracle a miracle?

Did you actually not understand the meaning? Here, I'll rephrase (even laboriously) and you may answer.

If an event would normally be considered a miracle if observed by (and their observations are in agreement) by three or more people, should it be judged as not a miracle if only two witnesses were present for their observations to be compared?

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you doing any miracles? What miracles have you done?

Are you saying that miracles are empirical proofs? Empirical proofs of what?

1. Is drinking a deadly thing and not being harmed a miracle performed by a person? Or is it God protecting the person should they be poisoned?
2. Is taking up serpents and not being harmed meant to mean being protected from a deadly bite, or a ticket to a snake-handler carnival?

I propose that in both case examples these are not active showy effects, but rather a protection from and by the Holy Spirit that the one being protected does nothing specific to invoke. In fact, they might not even be aware of the poison or the deadly snake.

Acts 28:3-6 KJV
(3) And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
(4) And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
(5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.


On this theme of passive protection I would put forth that protection from evil spirits (or the suppression of those that call on them) is a similar testimony. This does still happen today.

 

[7djengo7]

Did you actually not understand the meaning? Here, I'll rephrase (even laboriously) and you may answer.

If an event would normally be considered a miracle if observed by (and their observations are in agreement) by three or more people, should it be judged as not a miracle if only two witnesses were present for their observations to be compared?

If an event were a miracle, then it should be judged a miracle.
If an event were not a miracle, then it should be judged not a miracle.

A miracle should not be judged a non-miracle, and a non-miracle should not be judged a miracle.

 

[Rosenritter]

If an event were a miracle, then it should be judged a miracle.
If an event were not a miracle, then it should be judged not a miracle.

A miracle should not be judged a non-miracle, and a non-miracle should not be judged a miracle.

Since it was supposed to be a rhetorical question to begin with, I suppose that it's only fit that it be answered with a tautology.

 

[Crucifer]

By this logic, why did Jesus do any miracles at all? Wouldn't that take away from his incarnation miracle?

And what about the miracles performed by the disciples? Wouldn't that take away from the incarnation?

Many miracles still happen in the world today.
People just don't see them because, largely, we're doing good on our own and so no miracles avail us.
A sort time pastor I had at a certain church was very concerting on this point.
He was pretty young for his position; not really the most remarkable preacher either- but damn if he didn't expound on this one thing specifically
And
I think God used him to relay simply that