Messiah came in the first century AD according to the Book of Daniel

Tambora

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You reject that the entire book of Daniel is sealed up until the time of the end. The four beasts of Daniel 7 are fallen angels. Satan himself is the lion/head of gold. He will appear as the false Messiah and conquer the world. After him other angels will appear until the beast is fully formed. They will claim to be ancient aliens or visitors from other worlds but each one will represent a religion that men worship today so they will all claim to be gods. After the world is conquered ten human leaders or horns will be given dominion and finally a little horn or man of sin will be given unlimited power. He will work together with Satan to force the mark of the beast on the whole world. These things are coming. Bible prophecy is not make believe. Enjoy your freedom while it lasts because it will all come to an end eventually.
Hi Ep.

Something that always caught my eye about the 4 beasts is that the first 3 are described as something known on earth (earthly) --- lion, leopard, bear.
But the 4th beast is not.
It has a description, but not anything earthly.
It is described as being "diverse" from any king/kingdom that existed before.

Just a thought.
 

Ben Masada

New member
THE BOOK OF DANIEL IS SEALED UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END!!!

THE 1ST CENTURY WAS NOT THE TIME OF THE END!!!!

The time of the end was a reference to the end of the captivity of the Jews in exile. The reason is that Daniel had ceased his role as a Prophet when he got into the political life of Babylon as a Prime Minister second only to the King himself. According to Maimonides, one could not uphold both functions; as a prophet on the one hand and, at the same time a high political figure among the Gentiles on the other hand. Something similar to Joseph in Egypt but, Joseph was not a prophet.
 

Epoisses

New member
Hi Ep.

Something that always caught my eye about the 4 beasts is that the first 3 are described as something known on earth (earthly) --- lion, leopard, bear.
But the 4th beast is not.
It has a description, but not anything earthly.
It is described as being "diverse" from any king/kingdom that existed before.

Just a thought.

The four metals of the great image of Dan. 2 correspond with the four beasts of Dan. 7 so the iron king/kingdom would be the same as the 4th nondescript beast. In Dan. 2:43 it says they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men but they shall not cleave together. Now if the iron kingdom/4th beast were ancient Rome which was a kingdom of men it wouldn't make much sense but if it is in fact some kind of demonic kingdom we could easily see how that would not mix with the seed of men. In Rev. 5 there is a picture of a Lamb with seven horns and seven eyes where the Lamb is Jesus and the eyes are seven spirits of God. The horns may or may not be the seven spirits, the point being that this is a great example of a beast with horns that is not an ancient kingdom.
 

Epoisses

New member
The time of the end was a reference to the end of the captivity of the Jews in exile. The reason is that Daniel had ceased his role as a Prophet when he got into the political life of Babylon as a Prime Minister second only to the King himself. According to Maimonides, one could not uphold both functions; as a prophet on the one hand and, at the same time a high political figure among the Gentiles on the other hand. Something similar to Joseph in Egypt but, Joseph was not a prophet.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan. 12:4 One of the markers of the time of the end is that knowledge will be increased. The internet is the single biggest increase in knowledge the world has ever seen. Google can tell me more than all the books in all the libraries of the whole world.
 

beameup

New member
Now, I don't know about you for teaching against the gospel of Jesus and in favor of the gospel of Paul.

Jesus' ministry to Israel:
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Romans 15:8
The "Gospel of Jesus", as you call it, was presented to Israel
If you want to find out what you "missed out" on (ie: Millennial Kingdom) read various parts of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. Read Acts 3:13-21.
 

beameup

New member
The time of the end was a reference to the end of the captivity of the Jews in exile. The reason is that Daniel had ceased his role as a Prophet when he got into the political life of Babylon as a Prime Minister second only to the King himself. According to Maimonides, one could not uphold both functions; as a prophet on the one hand and, at the same time a high political figure among the Gentiles on the other hand. Something similar to Joseph in Egypt but, Joseph was not a prophet.

The only reason why Daniel the Prophet wasn't murdered by the Jews is because he was "untouchable", as he was under the protection of the Persians.
The only reason why Elijah wasn't murdered by the Jews is because God rescued him - God "evacuated" him from the earth.
As for the other Prophets that God sent to Jews, they were mistreated and murdered by the Jews. Do you really think that Elijah would sit down to dinner with Jews?
Elijah will return, but he will return with a message to Israel that few will want to hear. Moses could very well return as well, but will reveal things that few will want to hear.

Daniels message from YHWH through Gabriel was totally ignored. The prophecy, though a bit cryptic, is clear that The Messiah (Messiah the Prince) of Israel would return +/- 25 A.D.

Who cares what some so-called "sage" from the 12th Century A.D. has to say on the subject?
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
The Prophecy remains unfulfilled:


The "Abomination of Desolation" was fresh in the mind of every Jew in the first century, as it occurred under the Greek Selucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes in 167 BC. It's a matter of historical record. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation

However, their will be a "repeat" of the Abomination of the Most Holy Place (ie: Holy of Holies), when the Antichrist (False Messiah) presents himself, inside the Temple, as God to the Jewish people.

This is only the Jewish interpretation, and not an inspired revelation. Christ Jesus showed this view to be in error when he gave the warning to his disciples: “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Mt 24:15,16) These words show that “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” was not then past but a future event.
In addition the pagan desecration of the temple altar by Antiochus, however disgusting in God’s sight, did not result in desolation—for Jerusalem, for the temple, or for the Jewish nation. But 33 years after Jesus’ death, Christians did “catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation ... standing in a holy place.” (Mt 24:15) In 66C.E. pagan Roman armies surrounded “the holy city” Jerusalem, now the center of Jewish revolt against Rome. Thus, the ‘causing of desolation’ by the disgusting thing was imminent, and so this was the final signal for discerning Christians to ‘flee to the mountains.’ (Mt 4:5; 27:53; 24:15, 16; Lu 19:43, 44; 21:20-22) Following their flight, the desolation of the city and nation occurred, Jerusalem being destroyed in the year 70*C.E., and the last Jewish stronghold, Masada, falling to the Romans in 73C.E.
 

beameup

New member
The Abomination which causes Desolation takes place in the kodesh-kodesh
(lit. Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies, sometimes referred to as the "most holy place".
It last happened in 167 B.C. when the image of Zeus was set-up in the Holy of Holies.
The image of the Beast of Revelation will be the "repeat" of that event,
and is preceded by the False-Christ "sitting" and "standing" in the Holy-of-Holies
(the ark of the covenant could be sat upon, like a throne).
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
The Abomination which causes Desolation takes place in the kodesh-kodesh
(lit. Holy-Holy, or Holy of Holies, sometimes referred to as the "most holy place".
It last happened in 167 B.C. when the image of Zeus was set-up in the Holy of Holies.

You've just repeated yourself.... Why would Jesus mention the 'Abomination of Desolation' to his Apostles as a future event with a future fulfillment -after his death- if it had already occurred? Its self evident from Jesus own words that the prophecy in Daniel had not been fulfilled yet. As if it had been fulfilled already Jesus wouldn't have bothered to mention Daniels words. Regardless the desecration of the Temple in 167BCE didn't result in the destruction of Jerusalem nor the temple. Thus the Jewish tradition and interpretation of Daniels prophecy is clearly false.
 

beameup

New member
Regardless the desecration of the Temple in 167BCE didn't result in the destruction of Jerusalem nor the temple. Thus the Jewish tradition and interpretation of Daniels prophecy is clearly false.

You're confusing the "desolation of Jerusalem" with the "abomination of desolation" - two separate events.
Antiochus Epiphanes committed the "abomination of desolation" in 167 B.C. as recorded in Maccabees.
The Romans under Titus committed the "desolation of Jerusalem", and simply tore down the Temple.
You must very carefully scrutinize the words of Jesus, like a detective, as he will often refer to two events within the same passage, and they very well might not be contiguous. This is the "style" in prophecy throughout the Old Testament.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
You're confusing the "desolation of Jerusalem" with the "abomination of desolation" - two separate events.
Antiochus Epiphanes committed the "abomination of desolation" in 167 B.C. as recorded in Maccabees.
The Romans under Titus committed the "desolation of Jerusalem", and simply tore down the Temple.
You must very carefully scrutinize the words of Jesus, like a detective, as he will often refer to two events within the same passage, and they very well might not be contiguous. This is the "style" in prophecy throughout the Old Testament.

I've not confused anything. And they're not two separate events. Jesus words are clear when quoting Daniel:-

"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Mt 24:15,16)

The disgusting thing which was the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70CE.
 

beameup

New member
I've not confused anything. And they're not two separate events. Jesus words are clear when quoting Daniel:-

"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Mt 24:15,16)

The disgusting thing which was the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70CE.

Nope (you are using a poor translation).

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place kodesh-kodesh, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Matthew 24:15

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up [image of Antichrist], there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:11
The Great Tribulation
 

iamaberean

New member
The book of Daniel is sealed until the time of the end.

Daniel 9 is a prophecy about the reconstruction of Jerusalem and the 3rd temple.

The 'anointed prince' is most likely one of the two witnesses (anointed ones) who are killed in the midst of the final week.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
 

Ben Masada

New member
I've not confused anything. And they're not two separate events. Jesus words are clear when quoting Daniel:-

"Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Mt 24:15,16)

The disgusting thing which was the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70CE.

The quotations claimed in the NT to be from Jesus about Daniel, they were not from Jesus but from the Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew.
 

beameup

New member
So your answer is that all I need to do is blind myself to historically attested facts and "just beleeve" what you say is true after blinding yourself to historically attested facts? Perhaps you yourself might need to know a whole lot more, eh?

It was not literal babies of two years and under that Herod took away, and they were not literally physically murdered but rather "adopted", that is, rounded up by Herod just before his death and sequestered in the hippodrome, ("hedged in" as Micah puts it in the Septuagint version). While it is certainly true that they were marked for death by Herod, Salome instead released them and let them go free upon the death of Herod and, as prophesied in Micah and Jeremiah, they returned to their brethren the sons of Israel, (the story is fully documented in Josephus). Once a new convert was immersed under the Teacher of Righteousness, (Yochanan the Immerser), for the first year after immersion the new convert was considered nothing more than a "babe", (proselyte), while undergoing a preliminary induction into the teachings and rules of the community. After the first year of preliminary induction, (as a proselyte), if so be that the convert was found teachable and having an acceptable spirit, the convert then underwent another year of training and induction, (as a first year inductee or apprentice). After that a second year of induction training into the community continued for another year. After three years, (possibly "three years and the half"), the convert could then become a full fledged member of the community of Israel and was given the oath. The age group for the first level proselyte was generally 19-20, (and up from there). That was entry level age of immersion, (19-20), which are the babes or proselytes, (in the milk of the Word as Paul often says). For a second year inductee or apprentice the earliest age was generally 20-21, and thus, the earliest age barrier for the third year apprentice was generally the age of 21-22. This is why the word used for the children in the Matthew account is not a word meaning infants or babies but rather manchild servants, (anywhere from pre-teen childhood to the entry level age of entry into the community and possibly the priesthood). "Two years and below" is thus only understood within the context of first century Jewish/Hebrew customs, (and particularly those laid forth in what we now find in the DSS from the Qumran Community). That is also likely why Herod was so urgent about the situation: he knew he was about to die, and wanted his kingdom left to his sons according to his, (most recent), will and testament; but suddenly there was someone else of ruling age now foretold in both the prophets, and by the arrival of the magi, and whoever it was he was at least a two year inductee, and about to become a full-fledged member of the community of Israel. The story you get from Matthew now rendered into English clearly shows that what is described would not have been any kind of threat whatsoever to either Herod or his sons which were about to take over his kingdom.

1QS 6:13-23
[1st level — Postulant] And every man from Israel who freely volunteers to join the Council of the Community, he shall be examined on his intelligence and his deeds by the man who is the overseer at the head of the Many; and if he is suited to the discipline, he will bring him into the Covenant that he may be converted to the truth and turn away from all perversity: he shall instruct him in all the ordinances of the Community.

[2nd level — First Year Novice] And when he later comes to present himself to the Many, they shall all consider his case, and according to whatever fate decrees, following the decision of the Many he shall either approach or depart. And when he approaches the Council of the Community, he shall not touch the pure food of the Many until he has been examined concerning his spirit and deeds, and until he has completed one full year. Also, let him not mingle his property with that of the Many.

[3rd level — 2nd Year Novice] Then when he has completed one year in the midst of the Community, the Many shall consider his case concerning his intelligence and deeds with regard to the Law, and if fate decrees that he approach the Company of the Community, following the decision of the priests and the majority of the members of their Covenant, his property and also his wages shall be handed over to the overseer of the revenues of the Many; but it shall be inscribed to his credit, and shall not be spent to the profit of the Many.

[4th level — Professed Member] He shall not touch the drink of the Many until he has completed a second year in the midst of the members of the Community. When he has completed the second year, they shall examine him. According to the decision of the Many, and if fate decrees that he approach the Community, he shall be regularly inscribed in his rank in the midst of his brethren in whatever concerns the Law and justice and purity and the mingling of his property; and he may give his opinion to the Community together with
his judgment.

http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/boo...d the Personages of Earliest Christianity.pdf
PDF Pages 37-38 (Book Pages 27-28 [Chapter 2])

Perhaps you need to know much more instead of ignoring historically attested facts, such as the census of Quirinius, which no doubt occurred when Archelaus was deposed, that is, circa 6-7AD, and likewise at the end of that same census Ananus ben Seth was installed by Quirinius as the Kohen Gadol, and at the same time the first uprising began under Judas the Galilean. All these historically attested facts entirely refute your assertion that Yeshua was born around 6BC some twelve years earlier. The reason most do not understand is because the virgin birth infancy narratives and allegories are just that: allegories, with supernal meanings. You've got a thousand miles to go but you will never get there by telling yourself you have already arrived. :)
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Sure you can learn vast amounts of superfluous information that is unnecessary to build a basic timeline.

Born 6 B.C. - Maji visit @ 2yrs old 4 B.C. - Herod begins to kill boys under 2yrs to protect his throne, Joseph warned to flee to Egypt 4 B.C. - Joseph returns after the death of Herod and moves to Nazareth.
Jesus achieves age 30 in 25 A.D. and enters ministry which lasts 3 1/2 years.
Now, using Daniel you can start at the date of Artaxerxes proclamation and go forward 483 years to find the date that Messiah will present himself in Jerusalem as the King (ie: Palm Sunday).
 

Ben Masada

New member
The only reason why Daniel the Prophet wasn't murdered by the Jews is because he was "untouchable", as he was under the protection of the Persians.

Not a single Jew ever tried to kill Daniel. Rather the Gentiles were almost daily trying to get rid not only of Daniel but also of the three wise ones with him. Read the book of Daniel and show me where I am wrong.

The only reason why Elijah wasn't murdered by the Jews is because God rescued him - God "evacuated" him from the earth.

The only problem Elijah had at his time was with the "Jews-for-Baal" who would straddle the issue between Hashem and Baal. You know, as we have today with the "Jews-for-Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" straddling the issue between Judaism and Christianity. (I Kings 18:20,21)

As for the other Prophets that God sent to Jews, they were mistreated and murdered by the Jews. Do you really think that Elijah would sit down to dinner with Jews?

Would you please show me the reference to the loyal Jews, except for the Jews of Baal who wanted to kill Elijah? I see that you are simply trying to promote your anti-Jewish hatred

Elijah will return, but he will return with a message to Israel that few will want to hear. Moses could very well return as well, but will reveal things that few will want to hear.

Elijah was a Jew and he knew only too well that once dead no one would ever return from the grave. Besides, he would not contradict the Prophets of the Most High.(2 Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14; Job 7:9) But keep waiting.

Daniels message from YHWH through Gabriel was totally ignored. The prophecy, though a bit cryptic, is clear that The Messiah (Messiah the Prince) of Israel would return +/- 25 A.D.

Of course! And the Messiah did return from Babylon. The problem with you is that your Messiah is according to the gospel of Paul and not of Jesus. The Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah won't die; he is to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) Then, if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "the Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." that's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God. (Exod. 4:22,23)

Who cares what some so-called "sage" from the 12th Century A.D. has to say on the subject?

Sorry! I forgot that you have first to make of him a Christian to care as in the case of Jesus. If he remains a Jew as in the case of Maimonides, you are back on the saddle again: "Crucify them!"
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
The quotations claimed in the NT to be from Jesus about Daniel, they were not from Jesus but from the Hellenist who wrote the gospel attributed to Matthew.

Whether you think Matthew was written by the Apostle Matthew or a 'Hellene' is irrelevant. I'm not interested in getting in that discussion with you.

What is relevant is the Jewish interpretation of the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy is patently incorrect. Remember Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel. Therefore these aren't Matthews words...
 

Ben Masada

New member
1 - Whether you think Matthew was written by the Apostle Matthew or a 'Hellene' is irrelevant. I'm not interested in getting in that discussion with you.

2 - What is relevant is the Jewish interpretation of the fulfillment of Daniels prophecy is patently incorrect. Remember Jesus quoted from the. Book of Daniel. Therefore these aren't Matthews words...

1 - Two reasons why Matthew the Apostle could not have writen that gospel: First, if you read Matthew 9:9, you don't have to be a genius to see that he did not write that gospel. The text can't be more clear. And second, a Jew would never write against his own Faith which was Judaism.

2 - So, Jesus quoted from the book of Daniel! Possibly, where is it reported in the NT? Impossible! Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. The Hellenist who wrote the gospel of Matthew read Daniel and interpolated that text into his gospel as of being authored by Jesus. Now, regarding our interpretation of the prophecy of Daniel which you define as "patently incorrect" I am ready to make a deal with you. You post your interpretation of that prophecy and I'll post my Jewish interpretation to you. Then, we will see which one is patently incorrect. Well, do we have to! The prophecy is Jewish, written by a Jew in the Jewish Tanach. Any one can see that a Christian interpretation is doomed to be patently incorrect. But a deal is a deal.
 
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