ECT Matthew 24:30: Question For the Preterists

[Jerry Shugart]

Will the preterists answer the following question?:

When and how was this prophecy in "bold" fulfilled?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is Tet? He thinks that he has all the answers so where is he?

Are there no preterists who will answer the following question?:

When and how was this prophecy in "bold" fulfilled?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is there not even one preterist who will step up to the plate and answer my question?

 

[Interplanner]

I don't know how Tet would answer. You should also ask Ebedmelech at christianforums where I used to be before I was banned about SS marriage. Also ask for Codger. btw, eschatology is sort of hidden under general theology

In Mt 24A (to v29) he's speaking of the DofJ. After that it is the worldwide 2nd coming setting. A&B were thought to be in immediate succession, but there was also an allowance included that there could be a delay (in the final judgement). There was. This is explained in 2 Peter 3. I don't know why Luke (Paul) is so seamless and mentions no allowance (that I know of). Maybe it is one of the things that Peter "found hard to understand" especially after defending the delay!

I am a historian first, then a theologian. Things are much clearer when the history is settled first.

 

[Danoh]

I don't know how Tet would answer. You should also ask Ebedmelech at christianforums where I used to be before I was banned about SS marriage.

In Mt 24A (to v29) he's speaking of the DofJ. After that it is the worldwide 2nd coming setting. A&B were thought to be in immediate succession, but there was also an allowance included that there could be a delay (in the final judgement). There was. This is explained in 2 Peter 3. I don't know why Luke (Paul) is so seamless and mentions no allowance (that I know of). Maybe it is one of the things that Peter "found hard to understand" especially after defending the delay!

I am a historian first, then a theologian. Things are much clearer when the history is settled first.

You're in an SS Marriage? For shame!

:banana:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In Mt 24A (to v29) he's speaking of the DofJ. After that it is the worldwide 2nd coming setting.

In what way was the Lord Jesus seen in this worldwide 2nd coming setting? And who saw Him?

 

[Interplanner]

You missed what was said.

Mt24A (to v29) is 1st century Judea. "Immediately after" that the setting is worldwide and is the final judgement. They expected it to be right after, but there are also allowances it would be later. 2 Pet 3 defends the delay.

Anything mentioned in B is worldwide. It is now known to be future. Try to move through your verb tenses with the reader of Mt24 in 60 AD, in 70 AD and today, and it will become clear.

 

[Interplanner]

The ban about SS marriage was for what I said about the Jun 30 decision. It seems to have been pushed through by a European Anglican staff member.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You missed what was said.

Mt24A (to v29) is 1st century Judea. "Immediately after" that the setting is worldwide and is the final judgement. They expected it to be right after, but there are also allowances it would be later. 2 Pet 3 defends the delay.

So according to your ideas Matthew 24:30 has not happened yet?

That certainly undermines the idea that a first century "generation" would see all of the things which was foretold by the Lord Jesus. So according to your ideas did the Lord Jesus make a blunder or is the word "generation" a mistranslation?

 

[Interplanner]

It has not happened but a blunder is not an option nor is 'generation' a mistaken translation. He said only the Father knew. Mk 13 has a parable of the attentive servants and there are 4 options in it for the Master's return. And 2 Pet 3 defends the delay; the delay is due to grace.

 

[nikolai_42]

Will the preterists answer the following question?:

When and how was this prophecy in "bold" fulfilled?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Thanks!

While not a preterist myself, I'm fairly sure most preterists read that to be indicative of judgment upon Jerusalem. James Stuart Russell - being the prototypical preterist - quotes (in his work Parousia) such passages as Isaiah 13:9-10,13 and Isaiah 34:4-5 as examples of prophetic utterance that relies heavily on symbols to express judgment. Falling of heavenly bodies often represents the bringing down of governments. Mountains being melted with the blood of the slain need not even imply mountains covered with blood but vengeance upon "high places" or simply widespread bloodshed. He even notes that the Isaiah 13 passage is very similar to the exact terminology Jesus uses in His prophetic discourse. But Isaiah 13 was about the downfall of Babylon. He also points out that Micah 1:3-4 contain rather hyperbolic terms (at least if one is looking for precise historical detail) about judgment upon Samaria and Jerusalem. Noting that His coming in power and glory would be seen even by some of the disciples that were with Him (before they died), Russell indicates that the reading of this passage as confirming the dissolution of the Jewish polity and judgment that was brought upon them is no stretch chronologically.

He also makes a point that "all the tribes of the earth" is actually not a stretch to read "all the tribes of the land" - referring to Judea. He makes the claim that it is exactly parallel with Zechariah 12:12 - which is clearly meant in a "restricted sense".

So the short answer is that it summarizes the coming judgment upon Jerusalem and the devastating impact it will have upon those of Israel who dwell therein.

 

[tetelestai]

2 Pet 3 defends the delay.

Peter was referring to the time from the cross to 70AD (40 years).

Peter said there would be scoffers in the last days

(2 Peter 3:3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Years later, Jude said the following:

(Jude 17-19) 17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

So, as we see, "the last days" were during the days Jude was alive.

As I also said, the 40 year "delay" parallels the 40 year delay of the Exodus Generation entering the Promised Land.

The Exodus Generation was a typology of the First Century Generation.

Moses led his people out of physical bondage to a physical Promised Land.

Jesus led His people out of the bondage of sin to a spiritual promised land.

Both generations had a 40 year delay.

 

[tetelestai]

Will the preterists answer the following question?:

When and how was this prophecy in "bold" fulfilled?:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Thanks!

It happened in 70AD

Josephus wrote about it:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."


So did Tacitus:

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

 

[Danoh]

The ban about SS marriage was for what I said about the Jun 30 decision. It seems to have been pushed through by a European Anglican staff member.

I was joking, o grand re-historian, lol

And what a time to ban you - just when they launched their buy and sell section.

Oh, well, the best to you in your novels and scripts selling.

By the way; that link...

http://www.amazon.com/books/Marcus_Sanford

...took me to a blank page...

Did you mean this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Marcus-Sanford/e/B00JDSBXZ6

 

[Danoh]

It happened in 70AD

Josephus wrote about it:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."


So did Tacitus:

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure."

Put those two up on that same wall holding the dart board with an image of Constantine on it - lost as could be in his other gospel; which gospel he was supposedly inspired to follow/build on by some vision of Christ in the heavens instructing him to go out and conquer in the name of that doctrine from hell that is now so well known as the doctrine of the RCC.

For even if I am off on any of that about Constantine, despite the sincerity of my heart in relating it, it just proves the following point.

You Partial Preterists are absolute fools in this notion of yours that your Theology is to be based on the vanity of "historians," in all said vanity's various shades, agendas, guessings at; mis-fires, etc.

 

[Interplanner]

Thanks, Danoh, about the link. I don't know how these things get derailed. You would think the system would try to make past ones or close ones work rather than go blank. Unless someone in there doesn't want me to gain any traction.

 

[Interplanner]

re 'signs and wonders' at the DofJ,
Pastor P. Holford in 1805 listed about 7 as I recall; his material is somewhere online. In connection with 2 Pet 3:10 (the events of ch 3 are sometimes taken to be about the DofJ by preterist writers), there was also a "roar" which Josephus noted, and mentioned how many others heard it. There was no rational explanation. It was the sound of a large fire, but was never seen.

There needs to be some physical explanation for why the gold plating got hot enough to be found several layers down in between laid stone. How does a building which is mostly stone (Mt 24:2) get that hot in a fire? There is a scene recorded in a few years from a Roman historian about an attempt to build Saturnalia (the next name for the city) on the temple site. The workers complained of intense heat from below, and the project was redesigned.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So the short answer is that it summarizes the coming judgment upon Jerusalem and the devastating impact it will have upon those of Israel who dwell therein.

Well, how do they explain that the great tribulation is already over by the time the Matthew 24:30 happens?:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It has not happened but a blunder is not an option nor is 'generation' a mistaken translation.

According to the interpretation of the preterists the Lord Jesus said that the generation then living would see all the things mentioned byHim in the Olivet Discourse.

But according to you the generation then living did not see all of those things.

So either the Lord Jesus made a blunder or the word "translation" is not the correct translation!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It happened in 70AD

Josephus wrote about it:

The problem for you is the fact that at the time when Josephus saw what he saw the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD had not yet happened. But this passage demonstrates that it will not be until the great tribulation is over when all thre tribes will see the coming of the Son of Man:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).​

To see what Josephus said and when he said it go to this link:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_theological.html#Book_VI,_Chapter_V,_Section_2

Then scroll down to Book VI, Chapter 5, Section 3. And notice on this preterist site that we read, "The Signs Which Preceded the Destruction."