Marines lied: women in combat

[Jabin]

We were told by the Marine Corps that women in combat roles would be held to the same physical standards as men. Of course, that was a lie from the start. E.g. men had to do 20 pull-ups for a perfect score, while women only had to do 7 for a perfect score.

There was suppose to be implemented this new year a 3 pull-up minimum. But, most female marine recruits can't even do 3. So, the marines suspended this requirement. Not one pull-up by females is required. The Marines knew from the start, long time ago, that most females couldn't manage even 3, yet they still claimed they would hold women to the same standards as they sought to open up combat roles to women.

Why does it matter? How about all the feminists who claim women can do anything men can do? Well, in most of life we can somewhere pretend that both sexes and the various races are equal in all capacities. But, sometimes you just can't pretend. Like when you need someone to throw a grenade. Woman can't throw a grenade far enough to avoid eating shrapnel.

Marine Mary Jane is laughing because she knows she'll never have to throw a grenade. She'll just get knocked up when combat comes around.

 

[Nick M]

They probably can't wait to sign up to be a rifleman.

 

[Nick M]

Yes, I know what Soetoro is trying to do.

 

[gcthomas]

But, sometimes you just can't pretend. Like when you need someone to throw a grenade. Woman can't throw a grenade far enough to avoid eating shrapnel.

The standard US Issue Fragmentation Hand Grenade, the M67, has a kill radius of 5 meters and an injury radius of 15 meters. Fifteen metres isn't very far, so I'm sure that those women who get through the training could manage that. Pull ups are probably just meant as an indication of general fitness - pull ups don't predict soldiering skills for a logistics officer, do they?

Most marine jobs are still exclusively male, with women serving in armoury, supply and logistics. Does the USMC routinely issue supply troops with grenades, or just rifles/sidearms? Are any women in roles where grenades are issued?

 

[This Charming Manc]

I am prone to think the marines need to be left to make the own mind up on what they need without political interference.

But am prone to think that women make combat situations more complex, and that any marine is a potential combat troop[ especially in the wars without front lines will be fighting in the future.

 

[Jabin]

The standard US Issue Fragmentation Hand Grenade, the M67, has a kill radius of 5 meters and an injury radius of 15 meters. Fifteen metres isn't very far, so I'm sure that those women who get through the training could manage that. Pull ups are probably just meant as an indication of general fitness - pull ups don't predict soldiering skills for a logistics officer, do they?

15 meters is 45 feet. Do you think most women could reliably and accurately throw half that far from an awkward position, like while hiding behind something? If you want to say "yes", then shut up and hand a few feminists grenades to throw while you stand next to them. I'll be sure to nominate you for a Darwin award. (BTW, I'm not speculating, the marine corps has already done the testing and found that women have trouble throwing far enough.)

Arm strength, as reflected with pull-ups, is important for such things as lifting heavy equipment or pulling wounded soldiers to safety.

As for logistics, we're talking marine combat. Besides, if I address the logistics argument, you'll just call me a misogynist, because reality is only a secondary concern of yours.

 

[Nick M]

Send them out there to do a man's job

I hope you liberals are greatly offended.

 

[jamie]

As for logistics, we're talking marine combat. Besides, if I address the logistics argument, you'll just call me a misogynist, because reality is only a secondary concern of yours.

As I understand it women are being allowed to attend ITR but are not being assigned the 0311 MOS and therefore are not being incorporated into infantry assignments.

 

[gcthomas]

As I understand it women are being allowed to attend ITR but are not being assigned the 0311 MOS and therefore are not being incorporated into infantry assignments.

Right. Women are not being given roles that will have them issued with grenades. They will have personal protection firearms only.

I don't know how the Marines use grenades, but at least the British Army tends to use grenade launchers for distance, and hand grnades are usually posted or underarmed into rooms and trenches. Range is less important than calmness and control. After throwing, you will usually duck behind cover, since the fragments can travel up to 250 metres. No marine can throw that far.

And I have seen women bowl a cricket ball in excess of 70 mph, and can return the ball from the boundary 80 m away. The main problem women have with throwing is poor technique, not strength. Training will improve technique dramatically.

Jabin: you say that the Marine Corps has done the testing - do you have a reference for that? It wouldn't surprise me if was an unattributed factoid, perhaps with some reality for pre-training assessments. Or made up for rhetorical purposes.

 

[Jabin]

dupe

 

[Jabin]

And I have seen women bowl a cricket ball in excess of 70 mph, and can return the ball from the boundary 80 m away. The main problem women have with throwing is poor technique, not strength. Training will improve technique dramatically.

Why do you make such stupid arguments? Here you're presented with a fact that most women who have joined the marines can't even do 3 pull-ups for lack of strength. And, you say their throwing problem is technique, not strength?

Okay? Why is their technique so bad? Do you think women are stupid? Oh, here's where we get to the argument of a sexist society not allowing women to learn how to thrown... even through women get massive preferential treatment in sports because of Title IX.

Jabin: you say that the Marine Corps has done the testing - do you have a reference for that? It wouldn't surprise me if was an unattributed factoid, perhaps with some reality for pre-training assessments. Or made up for rhetorical purposes.

Use Google.

 

[gcthomas]

Okay? Why is their technique so bad? Do you think women are stupid?

I think you are stupid. Of course, women don't spend as much of their childhood playing ball games and developing their throwing technique.

Use Google.

Naturally I had already tried a web search before asking for the info. I didn't find any official reference, only second (third, fourth?) hand comments that had the smell of urban myth.

You seemed certain to be able to support your firm claim. So I asked.

With no online source, and you refusing to support your assertion, I will conclude that you are lying in order to bolster your bigotry.

Did I get that right!

 

[This Charming Manc]

Would a video of a male cop being beat up , prove that men were not up to the job?

Were in broad agreement on point, but your arguments a nonesense.

Send them out there to do a man's job

I hope you liberals are greatly offended.

 

[gcthomas]

Would a video of a male cop being beat up , prove that men were not up to the job?

Were in broad agreement on point, but your arguments a nonesense.

I agree. And I did find several video clips of male marines flunking their grenade throwing very badly, alongside a failing female.

 

[Traditio]

The standard US Issue Fragmentation Hand Grenade, the M67, has a kill radius of 5 meters and an injury radius of 15 meters.

15 meters is over 45 feet. That's a fair distance. Just saying.

 

[Spitfire]

Being an effective soldier is far, far more about knowing what to do and how to react to situations than it is about muscular power nowadays. I agree that men and women should be held to the same standards, but that is mostly to ensure that female soldiers are mentally capable. The women you want are those who understand that they have to work extremely hard compared to their male counterparts just to get by and will never truly excel, yet have the tenacity to swallow their pride and keep going. The women you don't want are those who might expect enemies to play nice with them or the reality of a dangerous situation to give them a break.

I still think things would have to get pretty desperate before even the countries who are the most accepting of the idea of women in combat roles put lots of of women into front line combat, however.

 

[Jabin]

I think you are stupid.

Yes, to stupid to be make up the lies required by Political Correctness.

Of course, women don't spend as much of their childhood playing ball games and developing their throwing technique.

Why is that? A sexist society? Or, girls just don't like to throw balls because they can't? Remember, Title IX gives girls massive preferential treatment in sports. There are as many girls playing organized sports from preschool on as there are boys.

Naturally I had already tried a web search before asking for the info. I didn't find any official reference, only second (third, fourth?) hand comments that had the smell of urban myth.

See my OP, the marines already knew women couldn't do nearly the number of pull-ups as men. In spite of claiming they'd hold women to the same standards, they never intended to do so. You don't think they're aware of how far a woman can throw grenade? And, you expect them to advertise that woman can't throw, else it must be urban myth?

If the marines had found women can throw as far as men, they would have advertised it. That reason alone is your proof. Besides, if you did use Google, you would have discovered that all second-hand information is one-side, and not for reasons of Political Correctness. It's not because they are trolling for someone to accuse them of bigotry.

I will conclude that you are lying in order to bolster your bigotry.

Did I get that right!

:rotfl:

 

[Jabin]

Being an effective soldier is far, far more about knowing what to do and how to react to situations than it is about muscular power nowadays.

Technology is reducing the need for muscle, but we're still talking about marine combat where muscle is still important. And, we're still talking about life and death where even factors other than strength can't be ignored without great risk. Where are the female chess players and professional gamers? Strength is not a factor, but stratagy is, and who wins is very objective and concrete. Or, taking sniping. Neither strategy or strength matters much, but I don't think women have the same potential to be snipers. But, things are things we're not suppose to talk about, right?

I agree that men and women should be held to the same standards, but that is mostly to ensure that female soldiers are mentally capable.

For most of the month, anyway? How do the Marines measure mentally capable? Video games and sniping are measures of mental capability that applies to combat.

Women are biologically designed to be nurturers, not combatants. They will never be competitive with men in the marines. Even the best woman in the marines will be no better than a second-rate male marine.

All we're ever going to see from women in the Marines is the Marines Corps lying, saying they'll hold women to the same standards, without ever doing it. And, every so often, we'll hear women complaining about being discriminated against in the Marines because they'll get passed over for things they can't do (because they can't do them, not because they're female). And, when combat comes, we going to see lies (exaggerations) from the Marines about how the females performed (e.g. Jessica Lynch).

 

[Jabin]

:crackup: The cute blond standing behind me just informed me that I lack social skills. :crackup:

 

[gcthomas]

Where are the female chess players and professional gamers? Strength is not a factor, but stratagy is, and who wins is very objective and concrete.

You are mistaken here.

The reason that men take most chess competition victories is mostly due to their vastly greater number partaking. Larger samples naturally have more extreme values, which will favour men in competitions. The same issue affects all situations where participation rates are dramatically different.

See here for the Proceedings of the Royal Society paper on the issue.