ECT Madists are closet Calvinists

Status
Not open for further replies.
andyc

andyc

New member
Cross Reference said:
All of the above I find accurate except the last. Here's my take:

If people are saved and hold fast to Him Who saved them to seek as He said to seek, they will be gifted His Faith, by measure, i.e., His Life, the ability to live as He lived and attain unto as He did.. What's the basis for God doing the choosing except to groom His sons unto fatherhood in Him. I believe, by your two verses, that gift was NOT for believing but for attaining unto in Christ by the receiving of the same Mind that was in Him, sons strengthened in all His might to conquer vanity/self/Satan as He exampled in His flesh __ and Paul later brought it to us by his own exeriences . . . :)


OMT: The "Gift of Faith" is a Pentecostal Gift. Jesus said: 'Don't leave home without it'!
Click to expand...

I don't believe that faith is gifted, because faith is dependent on the word of God, and we have to incline our ear to hear. Once we hear the word, and accept it in our hearts, faith to lay hold of the promises is stirred up within us.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Paul is criticizing the people for not inclining their ears to hear. If people do not do this, they can't understand with their heart, and so faith cannot be stirred.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
In one respect, John 19:30 states; "When Jesus therefore had received
the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and
gave up the ghost.

By saying; "It is finished," Christ had faith that ALL He came to
accomplish, was accomplished! When we place our faith in Christ, we
are in agreement with His faith, that our salvation is received by our
faith in His finished work (death and resurrection) and Himself being;
God the Son! Just an interesting way of interpreting it?
Click to expand...

Wrong! What makes you think He needed faith for that when hanging on a cross????
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
andyc said:
I expect this reaction, but I was hoping for you to use your head and respond to the points raised. If you don't want to, leave the thread.
Click to expand...


Andyc, None of them will do that. They evidence what they worship and continue because they are unwilling to pay the price for His Faith __ His Life. What they worship tells them they don't need to and that is what they must find the rationale to defend.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
andyc said:
Lets look at how a madist interprets Christ's faith.



Now there are a lot of problems here. Faith to receive and live by is the same faith. To simply believe. Calvinists would agree with this, but they do not believe that salvation faith is possible until God first inserts it in us. The MADist believes the same, but with a very subtle twist. The initial faith appears to be initiated within the human will, and is immediately accepted and replaced with Christ's faith which is far more stable and can never fail. In other words, God initially acknowledges our useless, wavering, doubting, unstable faith, in order to get the sinner through the door, and from that moment on, only recognizes Jesus' faith which is imputed to the wavering unstable believer. This leaves the wavering flake to be assured that their faith is now redundant, and that God is now only concerned with Christ's faith imputed to them. Anyone who knows the MADists is familiar with what they're looking for in their gospel. Their shoddy useless faith supposedly gets them over the line, and Christ's faith removes the accountability. That's really what its about.

James 1:6-8
But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Here wee see that it's useless coming to God with a wavering faith.



Sounds great doesn't it?
However, Paul was talking about being driven by the need to preach the gospel and do those things which please him. Christ through the Spirit in him compels him. That's a little different to how the MADists accept it for themselves.



Nope. The verse in the KJV says, and is interpreted as, being justified by the faith of Christ. This would completely remove any kind of faith we might possess. And this would be irresistible grace.
Click to expand...

Glorydazed believes God, through the Atonement has forgiven the act of sin, past, present and future, for those who simply make a profession of Faith in Christ. So does Grossy.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
Cross Reference said:
Andyc, None of them will do that. They evidence what they worship and continue because they are unwilling to pay the price for His Faith __ His Life. What they worship tells them they don't need to and that is what they must find the rationale to defend.
Click to expand...

Yeah

Theology has to be systematic in order for it to make sense, but what you find with the madists is that theology doesn't have to make sense at all systematically. They'll latch on to a belief that sounds reasonable, is palatable, makes sense to the natural mind, and then join it with other such beliefs, leaving the whole completed system problematic and full of holes when duck taped together with shoddy unskilled reasoning.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
andyc said:
Yeah

Theology has to be systematic in order for it to make sense, but what you find with the madists is that theology doesn't have to make sense at all systematically. They'll latch on to a belief that sounds reasonable, is palatable, makes sense to the natural mind, and then join it with other such beliefs, leaving the whole completed system problematic and full of holes when duck taped together with shoddy unskilled reasoning.
Click to expand...

. . . and "chicken dinners".

Universally speaking, I find they worship the systematic thing because, by their agreement, it is the way of fellowshiping with the "elitist" crowd. __ semblance without substance.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
andyc said:
Yeah

Theology has to be systematic in order for it to make sense, but what you find with the madists is that theology doesn't have to make sense at all systematically. They'll latch on to a belief that sounds reasonable, is palatable, makes sense to the natural mind, and then join it with other such beliefs, leaving the whole completed system problematic and full of holes when duck taped together with shoddy unskilled reasoning.
Click to expand...

That's nonsense and hopefully, you know it?
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Just this morning, Candy Andy took the Calvinists' side just because a MAD was disputing with them. Now he compares us unfavorably with them.

He's...confused.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
musterion said:
Just this morning, Candy Andy took the Calvinists' side just because a MAD was disputing with them. Now he compares us unfavorably with them.

He's...confused.
Click to expand...
I don't consider calvinism to be heresy. I believe TULIP is erroneous, but there's nothing sinister in it. The worst thing about it that I identify is that their view of the sovereignty God is taken to fatalistic extreme.
Mad, however, is a nasty heretical invention that is designed to appease the flesh.
 
Delmar

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
journey said:
Just for information, MAD and Calvinism are NOT compatible. One can't stretch either one far enough to get them to meet. Anyone who tries is foolish and doesn't have a clue.
Click to expand...

Actually, I do know Mid Acts dispies who lean toward Calvinism. Jim Hilston comes to mind. Not many like him to be found currently active on TOL though.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
Pages of people disagreeing but not challenging the point made. It tells me that the majority of MADists here have no interest in the systematic theology of MAD. There are implications when doctrines are accepted and rejected, but most don't care about this as long as it all feels nice.
 
john w

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
andyc said:
Perseverance
For the MADists, OSAS is all about personal assurance. This is exactly the same for Calvinists. The believer will persevere, not must persevere.
However, if a Calvinist who claimed to be a believer renounced their faith, the other Calvinists would not accept that that person's faith was genuine. The MADists would say the same thing about their own as well.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Clavinism/Calvinism does not teach eternal security-it teaches this "Perseverance of the Saints" "doctrine," which, in a nutshell, is the "thinking"that one must maintain a life of faith and good works in order to remain saved, to "prove" that you are one of "the elect," i.e., I know that I'm saved/one of the 'elect,' cuz my lifestyle tells me so. It's a subtil(Gen. 3 KJV) form of "works based" "salvation." Clavinists/Calvinists, of course, deny it, but it is the inevitable outcome of this "elect to salvation" satanic jazz. Of course, according to this "doctrine," those who were predestined to believe and get saved are also predestined to maintain their faith and good works for the rest of their lives. This teaching is substantially different from the doctrine of eternal security, where assurance is derived from the book, not from examining your lifestyle/fruit...........

Feelings....nothing more than feelings.....


andycain asserts that he is saved, by doing the same thing as Clavinists do, i.e., examing all that "fruit" of his, to determine if he is "truly saved." "Sorta like" "truly pregnant."


andycain is a "closet" Clavinist.


So there.
 
andyc

andyc

New member
john w said:
Clavinism/Calvinism does not teach eternal security-it teaches this "Perseverance of the Saints" "doctrine," which, in a nutshell, is the "thinking"that one must maintain a life of faith and good works in order to remain saved, to "prove" that you are one of "the elect," i.e., I know that I'm saved/one of the 'elect,' cuz my lifestyle tells me so. It's a subtil(Gen. 3 KJV) form of "works based" "salvation." Clavinists/Calvinists, of course, deny it, but it is the inevitable outcome of this "elect to salvation" satanic jazz. Of course, according to this "doctrine," those who were predestined to believe and get saved are also predestined to maintain their faith and good works for the rest of their lives. This teaching is substantially different from the doctrine of eternal security, where assurance is derived from the book, not from examining your lifestyle/fruit...........

Feelings....nothing more than feelings.....


andycain asserts that he is saved, by doing the same thing as Clavinists do, i.e., examing all that "fruit" of his, to determine if he is "truly saved." "Sorta like" "truly pregnant."


andycain is a "closet" Clavinist.


So there.
Click to expand...

Your understanding of 'perseverence of the saints' is inacurate.
Go back and read what I said about it in the OP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top