ECT Madism refuted by the Bible.

[Danoh]

Recently, I was watching a rebuttal of a rebuttal by Believers at odds with one another on an issue.

It was clear to me that, actually; both sides had unintentionally misinterpreted the passages in question.

And yet, both sides went on and on about how the other had been up to no good going in.

Sure enough, both ended up where both began from; neither side approved of (by) God.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Such an attitude toward one another going in "is not... in remembrance of me."

"Charity believeth all things" - always strives to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[patrick jane]

Recently, I was watching a rebuttal of a rebuttal by Believers at odds with one another on an issue.

It was clear to me that, actually; both sides had unintentionally misinterpreted the passages in question.

And yet, both sides went on and on about how the other had been up to no good going in.

Sure enough, both ended up where both began from; neither side approved of (by) God.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Such an attitude toward one another going in "is not... in remembrance of me."

"Charity believeth all things" - always strives to give the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree

 

[Interplanner]

I still say anyone reading Hebrews can see that there is not only nothing in it about a future/modern Israel, there is no reason why there would be!

 

[ClimateSanity]

I still say anyone reading Hebrews can see that there is not only nothing in it about a future/modern Israel, there is no reason why there would be!

What was the purpose of Hebrews? Was a future/ modern Israel part of the purpose? That's the reason it's not mentioned. No need to draw false conclusions from silence.

 

[Danoh]

What was the purpose of Hebrews? Was a future/ modern Israel part of the purpose? That's the reason it's not mentioned. No need to draw false conclusions from silence.

Yep; the issue in Hebrews is spiritual; not political.

For in fact, the political is pointless absent of the spiritual solved for first.

Why did Rome go against Israel in the end?

Because the height of Israel's spiritual rebellion against God ended up in their all out political rebellion against the very principality and power that God had allowed to come to rule over them going all the way back to their Babylonian captivity.

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

 

[Interplanner]

Yep; the issue in Hebrews is spiritual; not political.

For in fact, the political is pointless absent of the spiritual solved for first.

Why did Rome go against Israel in the end?

Because the height of Israel's spiritual rebellion against God ended up in their all out political rebellion against the very principality and power that God had allowed to come to rule over them going all the way back to their Babylonian captivity.

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

You guys are just beginners. Your question should be what was the purpose of the Gospel of atonement? Is there anything else God wants to communicate to mankind than that, 1:2.

You have no clue where you are in things, because of that dirty word history which you've go to avoid. Well, wake up. The end of Rom 9 and first 4 of Rom 10 are history. He is not talking altruistic or theoretical. He is talking about what Israel is actually like right then in those decades. Likewise many passage that is dismissed as a 'spiritual' thing (in the sense that it can't be historical, too).

If you read Lk 19 and 21 for its plain sense (since Israel had been warned geopolitically) there is both spiritual and political for Israel there as well as in Hebrews. The picture that is set up is perfect and powerful and predicated on Israel's previous history. That generation is 'wandering' in the 'desert' and must decide to 'rest.' If it does not it will be ruined. It is a 40 year generation just like the OT account it is based on or repeating. This time, failure means the land will be scorched.

And I forgot to mention Lk 23's role in this with the generation that will be adults when things turn awful. The same picture is painted.

The reason there is nothing future for Israel, theologically, is that there is no reason for it in light of Col 1 and Heb 1's declarations that the total disclosure of God has taken place in Christ Jesus. Danoh like many others goes back mistakenly to 'saved' in Rom 11, thinks it is a theocratic restoration in Judea, and misses what Paul is quoting from Isaiah, which was also a quote of John the Baptists. 'Saved' means to have sins debt remitted by the Third Party, Christ.

"If justfication by Christ is lost, all doctrine is lost and darkness." --Luther

 

[ClimateSanity]

If atonement is the only message God wants men to know, why write it in 1281 pages? Why the nation of Israel at all?

 

[Danoh]

Cute, Inter, history was almost my major. I love history. Which can be both a treat and a royal pain when watching movies set in some past history.

Am presently enjoying the heck out of the book The Chinese Machiavelli.

I just don't turn around and read Scripture from history - as you do.

Try switching those two...

 

[Interplanner]

If atonement is the only message God wants men to know, why write it in 1281 pages? Why the nation of Israel at all?

It always was going to come through one nation or another. There are shadows and foreshadows in all cultures, but there is one where there were divine-given propositions toward the Reality which is Christ. Human nature was punished capitally in the flood. Then law was given which still has a tendency toward externals and severity. Christ is the mature form of guidance of mankind--by example, by compelling love. The heights of dignity and respect for person and property could never have happened before the flood nor during the law.

 

[Interplanner]

Cute, Inter, history was almost my major. I love history. Which can be both a treat and a royal pain when watching movies set in some past history.

Am presently enjoying the heck out of the book The Chinese Machiavelli.

I just don't turn around and read Scripture from history - as you do.

Try switching those two...

I know you don't. You read it from D'ism and 2P2P.

Very interesting statement: from history. It better be. Otherwise you are saying it is not. That's why we have to know as much as possible about the zealot movement as possible.

Paul was joining with Isaiah in seeing what would happen when Christ came--the redeemer in Zion, the new covenant and sins debt taken away. Future for Isaiah, history for Paul. All the Israel that believes those specific points is saved, whether Jew or Greek, 9:6, 26.

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 4

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Two gospels. One while circumcised, the other is not.

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

And here is the other.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

One group circumcised in the flesh, and the other group disobeying God and not coming into the covenant of circumcision.

Now there are two groups, and through Jesus' body, neither group must continue with circumcision of the flesh, but both groups become ONE WHEN the Holy Spirit circumcises their hearts.

How does the Holy Spirit circumcise their hearts?

It is when one believes that Jesus' blood cleans them of the sins they repent of doing. The Holy Spirit comes to live in the heart of the repentant sinner who OBEYED Jesus---the Word of God.

Obeying Jesus is obeying the words of God.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You guys are just beginners.

:chuckle:

Children can understand simple things.

 

[Clete]

Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.

Describes Clete very well.

Proof texting I see.

LA

In what universe does this post make ANY sense whatsoever? :bang:

I did EXACTLY the same thing as Lazy Afternoon, except that I directly quoted a verse that explicitly contradicts his position WITHOUT need for me or anyone else to explain it, AND I even rightly predicted the complete lack of the ability of merely quoting scripture to move ANYONE off a stated position...

And what do I get in response?

In response to quoting God Himself and citing Jeremiah 18 as "the most important chapter in the whole bible", I'm compared to those who conspired to smite Jeremiah with the tongue! Truly, truly astounding!



Who in their right mind thinks that it makes any sense to give this hammer headed fool the time of day? What are you doing giving him the courtesy of writing a word in response to his stupidity that isn't directly intended to point out his insanity? Why act as if he's made a real argument and respond in kind? You both lower yourself and promote him! You have zero hope of convincing him of anything so what's the point?

There is no point that I can see. He is only good for making fun of and being shown to be the fool that he is in whatever creative way you can come up with.

Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lazy afternoon]

In what universe does this post make ANY sense whatsoever? :bang:

I did EXACTLY the same thing as Lazy Afternoon, except that I directly quoted a verse that explicitly contradicts his position WITHOUT need for me or anyone else to explain it, AND I even rightly predicted the complete lack of the ability of merely quoting scripture to move ANYONE off a stated position...

And what do I get in response?

In response to quoting God Himself and citing Jeremiah 18 as "the most important chapter in the whole bible", I'm compared to those who conspired to smite Jeremiah with the tongue! Truly, truly astounding!



Who in their right mind thinks that it makes any sense to give this hammer headed fool the time of day? What are you doing giving him the courtesy of writing a word in response to his stupidity that isn't directly intended to point out his insanity? Why act as if he's made a real argument and respond in kind? You both lower yourself and promote him! You have zero hope of convincing him of anything so what's the point?

There is no point that I can see. He is only good for making fun of and being shown to be the fool that he is in whatever creative way you can come up with.

Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

You can not even hide that you post to be seen and heard by men, as if that makes you something great.

Pro 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
Pro 6:13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
Pro 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Pro 6:15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

One group circumcised in the flesh, and the other group disobeying God and not coming into the covenant of circumcision.

Now there are two groups, and through Jesus' body, neither group must continue with circumcision of the flesh, but both groups become ONE WHEN the Holy Spirit circumcises their hearts.

How does the Holy Spirit circumcise their hearts?

It is when one believes that Jesus' blood cleans them of the sins they repent of doing. The Holy Spirit comes to live in the heart of the repentant sinner who OBEYED Jesus---the Word of God.

Obeying Jesus is obeying the words of God.

Good stuff!

 

[Interplanner]

:chuckle:

Children can understand simple things.

They cannot understand male-female issues in marriage.

Actually, I wish MAD people would see how complicated they are. Eph 2-3 is quite simple about Israel's promises. but mention it to MAD people and they can be as complicated as the IRS.

 

[Clete]

You can not even hide that you post to be seen and heard by men, as if that makes you something great.

Pro 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
Pro 6:13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
Pro 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
Pro 6:15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

LA

'Cannot' is one word, moron!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

LA is a clown. Take my word for it.

 

[Danoh]

They cannot understand male-female issues in marriage.

Actually, I wish MAD people would see how complicated they are. Eph 2-3 is quite simple about Israel's promises. but mention it to MAD people and they can be as complicated as the IRS.

It's just you concluding what is complex is complicated.

 

[Interplanner]

It's just you concluding what is complex is complicated.

Sorry, but like my experience the other night with the D'ist on Joel 3. it was so suffocatingly complicated that by the end he was asking if it made sense, which it did not.

The eschatology chart of the average D'ist looks like the laminated play calling card carried around by football coaches. They typically sell for $19.99 on TV!!! It is koolaid and is nothing at all as sane and precious as Eph 2-3. You don't know me and you don't know what I'm talking about.

D'ism was invented to salve the Protestant-Catholic friction of the 1800s. That's commendable to try to get past that, but it was horrible workmanship.