ECT MAD implies both Jesus and Paul are liars.

[dodge]

Paul was persecuting believers of Christ, Christians, the faith. He was doing that before he received revelation straight from God !!

The faith they are talking about PJ was faith in Jesus without which they would have not been persecuted.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[dodge]

No

The faith Paul persecuted was faith in Jesus and yes they were in the B.O.C.

 

[glorydaz]

That means that they believed that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, like many did when Jesus was alive. Think dodge !!

I think you're right about that PJ.

Like the branches on the vine in John 15 (IN HIM). Those in the vine were not in the BODY of Christ.

I'm thinking they were in this group...such as were "added to the church daily".

Acts 2:41-44 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;​

 

[glorydaz]

The faith Paul persecuted was faith in Jesus and yes they were in the B.O.C.

Why don't you ever prove what you say. You're really good at making claims you can't back up.

 

[dodge]

I think you're right about that PJ.

Like the branches on the vine in John 15 (IN HIM). Those in the vine were not in the BODY of Christ.

I'm thinking they were in this group...such as were "added to the church daily".

Acts 2:41-44 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common;​

Anything to avoid the obvious like Paul saying others were in Christ before he was, and Galatians saying Paul preached the faith he once sought to destroy. MAD has much in common with the rest of the cults. Nothing means what it says just to what the cult wants it to say. Your loss not mine.

 

[glorydaz]

lol, I understand as you I am saved either way. The hope is to get them out of the hole they have dug themselves into from following other men who accepted error and passed that error on to them.

You know, don't you, that every ignorant slob in the world think he's right, and the fact that you keep doubling down on your ridiculous charges is making it clear who that slob is?

 

[dodge]

Why don't you ever prove what you say. You're really good at making claims you can't back up.

It is right there in scripture. Do you believe Paul would have persecuted fellow Jews ? Nope, so that rules Jews out. Whatever the faith was that was exactly what Paul preached after he got saved. It is not hard to see that Paul was persecuting Christians as evidenced by what Jesus told Saul when he asked " Saul Saul why are you persecuting me and Saul said who are you Lord and Jesus said I am Jesus who you are persecuting ".

Paul was persecuting Christians and yet Jesus says Saul was persecuting Him which proves they were in the B.O.C. before Paul ever got saved.

 

[glorydaz]

Anything to avoid the obvious like Paul saying others were in Christ before he was, and Galatians saying Paul preached the faith he once sought to destroy. MAD has much in common with the rest of the cults. Nothing means what it says just to what the cult wants it to say. Your loss not mine.

You're a total waste of time. Stew in your own ignorant juices....you deserve nothing more.

 

[dodge]

You know, don't you, that every ignorant slob in the world think he's right, and the fact that you keep doubling down on your ridiculous charges is making it clear who that slob is?

You have been shown SCRIPTURE that proves MAD is a lie. I agree the slobs are those in MAD who pervert scripture to stay in a man made lie.

 

[Brother Vinny]

lol, I understand as you I am saved either way. The hope is to get them out of the hole they have dug themselves into from following other men who accepted error and passed that error on to them.

It's significant, but I don't know if it needs be something to get this worked up over. It's not like they're denying the deity of Christ, or pressing people into undue service via spiritual manipulation, or something. IOW, while I believe MAD is in error (but am open to evidence to the contrary), it's not a hill I'm going to die on, and it certainly isn't befitting "cult" status in the way Mormonism, JWism, and Oneness Pentecostalism are.

 

[dodge]

You're a total waste of time. Stew in your own ignorant juices....you deserve nothing more.

Nah, aint going to happen I am not MAD. The ignorant juices are ignoring scriptures that proves MAD is a lie.

 

[Tambora]

Seriously, the title of this thread is not an ad hom. It's an assertion aimed at an idea, not the holders of that idea. If the thread tile had said "MAD Adherents Make Jesus a Liar", or some such, that would be an ad hom.

Persons are not to be attacked. Their ideas are fair game.

Give me a break.

So. do YOU think MAD implies both Jesus and Paul are liars??????????????????
Seriously, have you ever gotten the impression that MAD places Paul ABOVE Jesus?????
Have you ever in your life seen any MADist say that Paul is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords rather than Jesus?????

You see, Brother Viney, Dodge is not attacking what MAD teaches.
Dodge is attacking something he has made up.
No one that has ever listened to what the MADists here teach could possible come away with the above opinions unless they are purposely being deceptive.

 

[dodge]

It's significant, but I don't know if it needs be something to get this worked up over. It's not like they're denying the deity of Christ, or pressing people into undue service via spiritual manipulation, or something. IOW, while I believe MAD is in error (but am open to evidence to the contrary), it's not a hill I'm going to die on, and it certainly isn't befitting "cult" status in the way Mormonism, JWism, and Oneness Pentecostalism are.

Anyone that promotes not following Jesus based on a few verses where Jesus said I am sent to the lost sheep of Israel and ignores what was for and to the B.O.C. is terribly deceived.

Anyone that says there are "2" Gospels gets elevated to "cult" when scripture clearly teaches "1" Gospel among many other deviations from scripture advocated and passed off as truth.

 

[glorydaz]

It is right there in scripture. Do you believe Paul would have persecuted fellow Jews ? Nope, so that rules Jews out.

:mock: dodge

Steven was a Jew, and he was the first martyr....Paul/Saul held his coat while he was stoned.

Almost all the early believers were Jews. :duh:

 

[glorydaz]

Nah, aint going to happen I am not MAD. The ignorant juices are ignoring scriptures that proves MAD is a lie.

"Paul would never have persecuted the Jews". :mock: dodge

 

[Tambora]

:mock: dodge

Steven was a Jew, and he was the first martyr....Paul/Saul held his coat while he was stoned.

Almost all the early believers were Jews. :duh:

His mouth goes into gear before his brain does.

 

[glorydaz]

His mouth goes into gear before his brain does.

Yeah, well I'm done with the dumb dumbs like Dodge and God's Untruth.

What a waste of time and space! That KingdomRose is another one. What good are they?
They refuse to listen, and they can't shut up long enough for the rest of us to even carry on a conversation. :rip::rip::rip:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Your argument is with what Jesus and Paul taught NOT with me.

Jesus and Paul taught two different things to two different groups.

Jesus taught the Law to the Children of Israel. He wanted a corporate relationship with Israel, so that Israel as a nation could go out into the world and teach about their Messiah.

Paul taught Grace to the world so that the world might become the Body of Christ in order to make Israel jealous of what they have, so that they would repent and return to their Messiah.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus said if folks did not believe Moses and the prophets ,uh oh ! Believe what ? Obviously Jesus, faith, GRACE, and salvation through Jesus are taught in the OT ; otherwise , Jesus would have been lying when He said NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead, which HE did !

So you're equating "Jesus, faith, GRACE, and salvation" with "Moses and the prophets"?

Sounds like you're calling Moses Jesus, and I'm pretty sure they're two different people.

Let me ask you this, dodge, was Jesus lying when He told His disciples that some of them would not even make it through the surrounding cities before His return?

 

[JudgeRightly]

2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

See below.

Paul taught and believed that the OT had more than enough truth about Jesus that just by believing and trusting the OT there was sufficient truth to "make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus".

Because there is.

If Paul was right , and I know he was:

Mad is wrong and error on every level.

As far as I'm aware, MAD is very similar to what I believe, with a few minor differences, such as that the Body of Christ is all believers, Jew or Gentile, not just Gentiles, but that the Nation of Israel is only comprised of Jews, born or proselyte.

1. Since many in MAD believe (falsely) that Paul was the first in the B.O.C. because of the "mystery" he revealed

I'd say he was the first because He was the first one saved by Grace after Jesus' resurrection, not because of what he taught.

HOW then could Timothy have been saved JUST by knowing the OT and been made wise in the things concerning Christ Jesus.

Ok, so this is the "See below" part.

In Genesis (which, last I checked, is in the Old Testament) there are two chapters that deal with salvation. The second one is Genesis 17, and it places Abraham (Abram, whose name was changed for the covenant God made with him) and his household and all of his descendants and their households under the covenant of circumcision (which, without going into a full Bible study, is a synonym for the Law).

However, two chapters earlier, in Genesis 15, which is the first chapter dealing with salvation, we see Abram and God entering into another covenant, one where God is the only one who does anything, and for Abram it is without conditions on his part. That is the covenant of Grace by which Paul was (and the entire Body of Christ is) saved, not the one of Circumcision.

2. If the meaning and message of salvation was hidden as those in MAD believe (falsely)

Because it was hidden. You didn't know about it, did you? God likes hiding things in His word so that we dig into it to learn more about Him, does he not?

how could Timothy have had faith in Jesus based on the OT alone?

Again, see Genesis 15. Specifically verse 6.

Can you not see the "through faith in Jesus" that Paul said was available in the OT?

Genesis 15:6

Jesus said, " if they believe not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead", and that is still true today!

Correct. However, that's because miracles (such as raising men from the dead) almost always produce unbelief. When you shove something in someone's face, they are forced to accept it as true, without being given the chance to have faith that it is true.

Again the OT: More than enough to believe , trust, and be saved in the OT through Moses and the prophets.

But not for the reason you give. It's because of Genesis 15, not Genesis 17 through the rest of the Old Testament.

Jesus said if folks did not believe Moses and the prophets ,uh oh ! Believe what ? Obviously Jesus, faith, GRACE, and salvation through Jesus are taught in the OT ; otherwise , Jesus would have been lying when He said NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead, which HE did!

See my above post on calling Moses Jesus.

The foundation was laid in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.

The Law (circumcision) was given in the Old Testament, and Jesus fulfilled the Law.

As those in MAD want to ignore the 4 gospels and all scripture except for what Paul wrote scripture says Jesus is in the WHOLE BOOK.

Psa 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

I don't ignore the four Gospels. I recognize that the message contained within them was directed at Israel, and not the Body of Christ, which didn't even exist until after Paul was saved. However, I also recognize this:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy3:16-17&version=NKJV