God's Truth
New member
2 Corinthians 2:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit,
ECT MAD implies both Jesus and Paul are liars.
- Thread starter dodge
- Start date
2 Corinthians 2:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit,
What does aroma have to do with this?
glorydaz
Well-known member
She does not comprehend spiritual things. :nono:
God's Truth
New member
You strain a gnat and swallow a camel.
The Bible was written with reference quotes.
Can you not concentrate and reply to you taught with scripture that Jesus is the Holy Spirit instead of concentrating on a reference number?
God's Truth
New member
I showed Nihilo that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. You should care to speak about that instead of insult.
Did you not read the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree?
From Scripture.
Incorrect, and there are no verses in the Bible that say that.
Do you not know what paraphrasing is?
Stephen was simply the last straw in a long line of rebellious acts against God.
Did you notice in Acts (and only in Acts) that there are three persons named Ananias? Acts is the only place in the Bible that has people with that name. And there's a reason for that (and no, it's not coincidence). (And yes, all three of them are real people, and each of their stories is quite literal.)
The first Ananias, the one who lied to the Person of the Holy Spirit, symbolizes Israel rebelling against God.
The second Ananias, the one whom Paul was sent to be healed, laid hands on Paul, symbolizing the transfer of authority from the Jews to Paul. This was three years after the stoning of Stephen.
Quick question: Why would God cut off his own people? Answer: because of rebellious acts. The last major single most rebellious act we see prior to Paul's conversion is Stephen's murder, which, if you ask me, is pretty darn rebellious, and immediately after that, the church in Israel is destroyed by Saul, which signifies Israel being cut off.
As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. - Acts 8:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts8:3&version=NKJV
The third Ananias, the high priest, symbolizes Israel in full rebellion against God after He had cut them off.
What are you waiting for? Do it.
I'm the one who quoted it, of course I read it.
You forgot something:
Israel was cut off, and them being cut off is the reconciling of the world.
Here's the entire chapter:
Israel's rejection not total
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,“L ord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life” ?But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.”And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.”
Israel's rejection not final
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!“For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?”“Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?”For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. - Romans 11:1-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:1-36&version=NKJV
Read it. Then read it again, and try to comprehend what it is saying.
Not just any people...
It's about the nation of Israel being cut off.
We're talking about a corporate relationship here, not a personal one. You're confusing the two.
You say that because you don't have the bigger picture of scripture. You're so focused on individual passages, and don't have a foundation to work off of. You cannot even swallow the milk of the word, how do you expect to digest the meat?
Again, I was paraphrasing entire chapters of the Bible. Do you know what paraphrasing is?
What? Jesus had already ascended into heaven about a year before God cut off Israel.
Where did you get the idea that it was before Christ's ministry?
See Romans 11, which I have quoted above.
No, it is not "just like the Gentiles."
Everything I say comes from the Bible, whether you understand it or not.
See above.
See above.
He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’" - Luke 13:6-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke13:6-9&version=NKJV
How many years was Jesus on the earth ministering to the Jews? 3 years
How many years did the man in the parable come looking for fruit on the fig tree? 3 years
How long was it from the time of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to Stephen's murder? 1 year
How long did the keeper of the vineyard say he would fertilize and till the ground around the fig tree? 1 year
What happened when Stephen was murdered? Israel was cut off
What did the man say should happen to the tree in the parable if it did not bear fruit? it should be cut down
Israel (the fig tree) did not bear any fruit after a year after the Holy Spirit was given, therefore she was cut off.
The man in the parable is Jesus, coming to find fruit in Israel. The keeper is the Holy Spirit, the one who fertilized and tilled for a year in Israel, to produce fruit. After a year, none was to be found, so God cut off Israel.
Here is an important point within the issue of whether God will return to work with Old Covenant Israel, identified by the physical blood line: "From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost
Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant as a small number who continue to be faithful to Christ in a time of apostasy, except the Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, which for Christian Zionists, are all Jews of the physical bloodline. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again.
Christ did not reject all of Old Covenant Israel as Pentecost implies above.
The problem is that Paul is often too subtle for Christian Zionizsts to fully understand what he says.
Paul introduces the doctrine of the remnant in Romans 9: 27, where he quotes Isaiah 10: 22, "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"
Then in Romans 11: 1-5 Paul explains that the New Covenant begins with the Remnant of Old Covenant Israel, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
In Romans 11: 2-4 Paul discusses a remnant that existed at the time of Elias, or Elijah, who in I Kings 19: 14 asks the Lord if he, Elijah, is the only one left who is faithful to God. God answers in I Kings 19: 18, that he has seven thousand who have not bowed their knees to Baal, meaning they are God's remnant.
When the multitude goes into false doctrines and false practices, God raises up a remnant to continue his plan for redemption and even to develop that plan of redemption spiritually. God begins again his people Israel in his remnant.
Paul says in Romans 11: 17-20 that those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were cut off. Since a remnant of Old Covenant Israel, including Paul himself, accepted Christ, then those who rejected Christ are the multitude of Old Covenant Israel. Those who rejected Christ are the multitude, but not all of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ. The remnant which accepted Christ is important because in them God began the New Covenant.
Christian Zionism is fixated upon the Multitude and does not know the remnant, which is a big part of their problem. The church, which is supposed to be a word meaning the same as the Greek ekklesia, tends also to focus on the multitude and not be much interested in the remnant. But the remnant is interested in the remnant.
Christian Zionism does not deal with the remnant as a small number who continue to be faithful to Christ in a time of apostasy, except the Christian Zionists do have their own version of the remnant called the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14, which for Christian Zionists, are all Jews of the physical bloodline. They link that remnant to their end time scenario saying that God will turn back to the physical descendants of Abraham to deal with them again.
Christ did not reject all of Old Covenant Israel as Pentecost implies above.
The problem is that Paul is often too subtle for Christian Zionizsts to fully understand what he says.
Paul introduces the doctrine of the remnant in Romans 9: 27, where he quotes Isaiah 10: 22, "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"
Then in Romans 11: 1-5 Paul explains that the New Covenant begins with the Remnant of Old Covenant Israel, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
In Romans 11: 2-4 Paul discusses a remnant that existed at the time of Elias, or Elijah, who in I Kings 19: 14 asks the Lord if he, Elijah, is the only one left who is faithful to God. God answers in I Kings 19: 18, that he has seven thousand who have not bowed their knees to Baal, meaning they are God's remnant.
When the multitude goes into false doctrines and false practices, God raises up a remnant to continue his plan for redemption and even to develop that plan of redemption spiritually. God begins again his people Israel in his remnant.
Paul says in Romans 11: 17-20 that those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ were cut off. Since a remnant of Old Covenant Israel, including Paul himself, accepted Christ, then those who rejected Christ are the multitude of Old Covenant Israel. Those who rejected Christ are the multitude, but not all of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ. The remnant which accepted Christ is important because in them God began the New Covenant.
Christian Zionism is fixated upon the Multitude and does not know the remnant, which is a big part of their problem. The church, which is supposed to be a word meaning the same as the Greek ekklesia, tends also to focus on the multitude and not be much interested in the remnant. But the remnant is interested in the remnant.
Kinda correct.
The remnant which accepted Christ Jesus were those from the house of Judah.
The New Covenant was made with that remnant of Jews, but after the cross, the New Covenant was also to the House of Israel, who were not part of the remnant of the House of Judah.
Jesus said that He had other sheep, that would hear His voice.
(John 10:16) I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
The Gentiles were the "other sheep". Amongst the Gentiles were the descendants of the 10 tribes from the House of Israel.
That is how all of Israel was saved.
The pagan Gentiles became fellow heirs with the promises to Israel (both houses).
(Eph 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
The Apostle Paul was a minister of the New Covenant:
(2 Cor 3:6) He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
However, you are 100% correct, in saying that Futurists/Zionists/Dispensationalists concentrate on the multitude that rejected Christ Jesus instead of the remnant who the New Covenant was made with.
Right Divider
Body part
She's one of those that thinks that all believers are "spiritual Israel".
musterion
Well-known member
That's got to play a part in the coming one world church. Everyone who is deceived into believing they are Israel will be drawn together as one, no matter what corner of Christendom they now hail from.
Interesting post...
Part of it reflects northwye's view; part of it your own, and part of it what some on here who post under the banner of their version of "MAD" hold to.
It is obvious each on here are "agreed" on one thing, at the same time each are "not agreed" on another.
Thus, your insistence on what you view as "correct" only reveals your share in the continued ignorance of far too many on the ever subtle but ever just as important difference between the conclusions/assertions "correct" and "agreed."
Right Divider
Body part
Abraham is the father of many nations and not just Israel.
Rom 4:16-18 (KJV)
(4:16) Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (4:17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (4:18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Right Divider
Body part
That fits nicely with these, doesn't it?
Rev 2:9 (KJV)
(2:9) I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9 (KJV)
(3:9) Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
God's Truth
New member
Wow, wrong. "The remnant which accepted Christ Jesus were those from the house of Judah." The remnant is about Israel.
God's Truth
New member
God plainly and clearly tells us that the CULMINATION of the ages had come, and no longer does blood relations matter. It only mattered before because Jesus was going to be a blood relative of Abraham. Now that Jesus has come, only his blood matters.
People used to be chosen by their blood relation to Abraham, and by a husband's decision, like when he marries a non Jew and wants his wife to become a Jew, a child of God. And it used to be according to a person just wanting to be called a child of God and they would convert to Judaism. God does NOT save anyone anymore that way, for God now chooses whom is a child of God.
No more can you just chose to be or expected to be because of your blood relation.
The only way now to be a child of God is for God to make you one. He makes people a child of His when He accepts them. Jesus tells us whom he accepts; it is those who do what he says.
John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
God's Truth
New member
How do you get that?
A true worshiper of God is one that believes and obeys God.
Not all people do that or preach that.
God's Truth
New member
God is not done with the world. All are bound to the same place.
God's Truth
New member
The many nations are Gentiles.
God's Truth
New member
Those who say they are Jews and are not, those are the blood relatives of Abraham not accepting the Gentiles and not accepting the Jews saved by Christ.