ECT Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation
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Notice you didn't want to address the scriptures.
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I gave you a clear scripture and you denied it.
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Jesus came to make a New Covenant.
The old one was based on the purification works of the law and did not include faith.
Some Jews had faith, and some did not, but the Jews who did not have faith when Jesus came---they were cut off and hardened and could only come to Jesus to be saved when he was crucified.
Jesus came for the Jews who had faith in God and in him.
They were God's and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.
Jesus said when he is crucified, then all can come to him to be saved, even the cut off Jews and disobedient Gentiles.
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You are a waste of my time. Goodbye.
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So you are going to talk instead to JW's and atheists?
Yes, with ISRAEL.
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The lost sheep of Israel first, and then the Jews who were cut off, and the Gentiles, if they believe and obey.
Nope. Just with Israel.
Nope. Unbelieving Israel as a whole was cut off, and the Gentiles were grafted in, but that has nothing to do with the New Covenant meant SOLELY for Israel.
Or are you calling God a liar?
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No, only the lost sheep of Israel first, and, they were saved. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave him (John 6:39). The rest of the Jews were cut off and couldn't be saved until Jesus was crucified. The Gentiles couldn't be saved either until Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
Matthew 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
Only the unbelieving Jews were cut off before Jesus even started his earthly ministry; they were cut off and bound to the place of the Gentiles, and could only be grafted in after Jesus was crucified, if they believed and obeyed.
Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Those verses do not support your position, at all.
Are you calling God a liar?
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. - Jeremiah 31:31-33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah31:31-33&version=NKJV
When, exactly, according to your position, were they cut off?
Anything less than an actual event in the Bible that would cause God to cut them off will not suffice as an answer to that question.
As I said above, your verses do not support your position.
Being blinded to the truth does not mean the nation is cut off, and Romans 11 was written AFTER the cutoff point in my position, so it supports my position as well, if not better.
You need to answer my question before I answer any more of your questions, GT.
When did God cut off unbelieving Israel? A verse or passage in the Bible describing God cutting Israel off or an event recorded in the Bible that would cause God to decide to cut off Israel will suffice.
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I give scripture about Jesus saying to the lost sheep only and that the rest of the Jews were cut off and hardened.
Not all Jews are lost sheep.
I gave you scriptures that show the lost sheep of Israel was included, and, after Jesus was crucified, the cut off Jews were grafted back in too, after that believed.
The scriptures say for all, but not all Jews or Gentiles will be saved.
When Jesus had his earthly ministry, he told them about it being too late.
God said all along that He would make a new covenant.
Of course they do.
They were cut off and hardened when Jesus walked the earth and bound to the same place as the Gentiles.
Jews and Gentiles can be blinded by the god of this world and given sight by God if they stop with disbelief in Jesus.
Not all Israel was cut off.
I gave you many scriptures that prove what I say.
Jesus spoke to the cut off and hardened Jews and told them it was too late for them.
Jews who didn’t have faith were cut off when Jesus came.
What you did was cherry pick verses that seem to, when taken out of context, support your position, but in reality do not.
John 6:39 is where Jesus is talking about the end of the world, where those who have heeded His call will be resurrected from the dead.
| And Jesus said to them, [JESUS]“I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”[/JESUS] - John 6:35-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John6:35-40&version=NKJV |
Matthew 10 is, again, talking about the last days, which Jesus had intended to happen just after being crucified, but which never happened.
| [JESUS]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.[/JESUS] - Matthew 10:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew10:23&version=NKJV |
Like I said, the verses you provided do NOT support your position. They support mine.
So what is Paul then, chopped liver?
| Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - Romans 11:22-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans11:22-29&version=NKJV |
Romans was written several years after Christ was crucified and raised from the dead and ascended.
So why is Paul talking about Israel like they're STILL cut off, years after the point which you assert is when they were grafted back in?
Either Paul has no idea what he's talking about, or your position is wrong, and the Jews have not yet been grafted back in again.
What are you even talking about?
No one said otherwise.
That doesn't answer the question.
When, exactly, according to your position, were they cut off?
A year or verse or event are the only tings things that will suffice for an answer to the question. I will also accept an "I don't know" as an answer, but that would mean admitting that your position isn't very well thought out.
"God said all along" is not a specific event, just a broad statement that only sounds like waffling.
GT, when, exactly, according to your position, were they cut off? Do you even have an answer to that question that isn't just a generic answer?
Saying it doesn't make it so. The verses do not support your position as I showed you above.
Usually when God cuts a people off, it's not a slow, gradual process as you imply here.
At what point during Jesus' earthly life was Israel cut off, since you seem to think it was while He walked the earth?
What in the world does that mean?
:yawn:
I don't disagree with that statement.
Well, no, you gave scriptures that you cherry picked to make it look like you know what you're talking about, but really, they don't support your position at all.
Where?
What, Luke 19:42? That has nothing to do with cutting anyone off. Again, it has to do with the end times, which were to come after Christ's ascension.
Came... from where? From Heaven? So faithless Jews were cut off at His birth? For what reason? There had been faithless Jews since the time God led the Israelites out of Egypt, why choose the point when the Savior was born to cut off the unbelievers if they're just going to be grafted right back in again?
Or when Jesus came from somewhere else?
Elaborate please.
And I still need a specific answer to my question:
When, exactly, according to your position, were they cut off?
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No such thing.
All the Jews who had faith in God BEFORE Jesus came---they now had to go through Jesus to remain God’s.
Jesus said he did not lose one that God gave him and he will raise them up.
What?
When Jesus comes again it will be the time of the resurrection of the dead
Jesus is talking about when he comes again. That is to all, just like everything he said is to all.
Why would you say that?
Do you think the other apostles were chopped liver?
Paul is explaining things to Gentiles in Romans.
Paul explains that not all Jews are cut off, and he explains that if they were then he wouldn’t be saved, because he is a Jew.
Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
What? I don’t understand what you are talking about.
I have been explaining that NOT ALL Jews were cut off, and, the Gentiles can be grafted in, AND the cut off Jews could be grafted in if they don’t persist in unbelief.
The scriptures are for all.
God does NOT play favoritism.
God doesn’t tell Jews that they will have a special calling the Gentiles won't have. Jesus told some of the Jews that Satan was their father.
It does answer the question.
They were cut off for the new covenant.
The faithless Jews were cut off from the Jews who had faith for the new covenant because the faithless Jews were bound over to the place of the disobedient Gentles---so they all can come to Jesus to be saved after he is crucified.
I even gave you scripture where Peter tells the cut off Jews that they could be saved if they believe and repent.
Peter is the one too who had the dream and then told the one and only gospel that saves to Cornelius and his whole household.
Read Acts 3 how it is explained about Jesus throughout the old testament.
Paul speaks to the Gentiles about the old testament many times.
This is PETER speaking about what the old testament prophets said:
Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
EVERYONE IS EVERYONE.
Not just Gentiles and not just Jews.
It was prophesied that Gentiles would be saved, and it is the one and only gospel that would save through Jesus' name.
2 Samuel 22:50 Therefore I will praise you, LORD, among the nations; I will sing the praises of your name.
Psalm 117:1 Praise the LORD, all you nations; extol him, all you peoples.
Apostle Paul even quotes Psalm 117:1 to let the Gentiles know that it IS THEM who are included when the Old Testament says NATIONS.
Romans 15:11 And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him."
Psalm 66:4 All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing the praises of your name."
John 4:42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, takes away the sin of the world!
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
ALL NATIONS, not just two or 12---ALL NATIONS.
Luke 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
Luke 24:47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
I have told you many times what Jesus said.
Jesus came and he told them NOW IT IS TOO LATE.
The scriptures say it.
Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Jesus said BUT NOW IT IS HIDDEN FROM YOUR EYES.
Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
Romans 11:8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
Mark 8:17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,
No such thing what you claim about me.
Jesus says NOW it is hidden from you.
God came to make a new covenant.
The old covenant was based on the purification works of the law.
God did not like it that the people would sin, give a sin offering---but not really be sorry for their sins.
You are given many scriptures.
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Every "Christian" cult gives "many scriptures".
Correct, no such thing as your position in the Bible.
No, He says He will not lose them and He will raise them. That's FUTURE tense. Meaning it is still yet to happen.
And What did Jesus said about when He would return?
[JESUS]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.[/JESUS] - Matthew 10:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV
So Jesus was telling them He was going to return SOON!
So soon, that they wouldn't have been able to even go throughout the cities of Israel before He returned! So the question you should be asking is, WHY DIDN'T HE RETURN when He said He would? Did something change?
The answer is YES. Something changed that caused Christ to decide not to return when He said He would.
Thank you, Captain Obvious, for repeating what I just said.
So Jesus was lying here?
But He answered and said, [JESUS]“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[/JESUS] - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:24&version=NKJV
Do you not understand when someone is using a (rather simple) figure of speech?
Duh.
This is contrary to your position, which is that the Jews were already, at the point at which Paul wrote Romans, grafted back in again. You said they were grafted back in in your post #172, at Christ's Crucifixion. Romans was written around 28 years AFTER the crucifixion.
So why would Paul in Romans 11 be talking about the Jews as if they are still cut off?
Of course you don't, because your position has confused you, blinded you from being able to clearly understand what is clearly written in Scripture.
Where have I said that all were?
You can't graft something back in that was never cut off.
Which is why I wasn't speaking about the Jews who were not cut off.
Please try to keep up.
Why would they need to be grafted in if they could already become part of God's covenant with the Jews by becoming Proselyte Jews themselves?
Duh.
Duh.
Sure He does. Israel is "His people."
No other nation on Earth is called that.
Yes, He does.
Multiple times throughout Scripture God tells His people that they will be His people and He will be their God.
He doesn't make this promise to ANY OTHER NATION.
So what?
WHEN!? You aren't giving me a specific point in time!
Why? Can you not explain your position in simple terms? You can only explain it in the abstract?
WHEN WERE THEY CUT OFF!?
Was it before Christ was born?
Was it after? If so, at what point after Christ's birth were the unbelieving Jews cut off?
Was it when He first started doing miracles? Was it when Judas betrayed Him?
WHEN?!
WHEN?
And yet, even 28 years later, when Paul was writing Romans, they STILL had not been grafted back in again. Why not?
Cornelius was saved after Paul, so that fits my position better than it does yours.
So?
Did you notice that there's no mention of repentance? No mention of following a law of any sort? Just "believe in Him"?
Again, anything after Paul's conversion fits my position better than it does yours.
Well, no, it wasn't prophesied.
You CANNOT point to any single scripture in the Old Testament that says that Gentiles would be saved.
Sorry, but those verses don't say the Gentiles will be saved.
Try again.
So what? Paul quoted lots of Old Testament passages.
Sorry, but that doesn't mean that it was prophesied that Gentiles would be saved. It just doesn't.
Sorry, but that doesn't say that Gentiles will bee saved..
New testament verses are not "prophecy."
So far, your 0 for 4 as far as old testament verses go that support your position.
Would you like to try again?
Or have you been convinced yet that your position is wrong, and you should reconsider it.
Yes, Christ came to take away the sin of the world.
And?
But you haven't answered my question.
When were they cut off?
Too late for what?
To be grafted back in again? That makes it seem like their being cut off is final, which Paul preaches against...
To not be cut off? So you're saying that they still hadn't been cut off by that point in time? That they were cut off afterwards? That fits MY position.
Having things hidden from one's eyes is not cutting them off.
If that is what you're asserting, then you need to provide evidence for that assertion.
So what? that doesn't mean they're cut off...
How many times did God blind or deafen (literally or figuratively) a person or group of people in scripture without needing to cut them off?
Do you even know what it means to "cut off" something?
Denying it won't help your position.
WHEN did God cut off the Jews?
So at that point? Or at some other point?
Only with Israel.
Well, no, it was based on the act of cutting off the flesh, both figuratively and literally.
And where does the Bible say this?
And yet, not a one of them have answered my question to you about WHEN God cut off the Jews.
So how about it, GT, When did God cut off the Jews?
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Jesus said he DID NOT lose one that God gave him, AND, he will raise them---at the resurrection of the dead.
We all too have to be saved and then will get raised from the dead at the resurrection.
John 18:9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."
Well, this is a difficult scripture for some. Some believe that Jesus was speaking of the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and some say it is at the end of the world. So what is your point?
God doesn’t care if you call yourself blood related to Abraham, or if you call yourself an Israelite, see See John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God..
So explain to me your beliefs with that knowledge.
No way did Jesus change. The plan was made before the beginning of the world.
1 Corinthians 2
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived” —
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
You are the one going against me.
You are the one who says all Jews will be saved and that Gentiles and Jews aren’t treated the same and saved the same way and same time.
How many times do you have to be told that what he said was to the remnant Jews first, and then what he said was to all after he was crucified?
What Jesus said when he walked the earth is the same one and only message by the one and only Lord to all, just Jews FIRST and THEN GENTILES.
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Some Jews were already grafted back in, and Paul was explaining that to Gentiles. Paul was a cut off Jew and had to be grafted in. Paul was not a believing Jew when Jesus walked the earth. Paul was a Pharisee. Paul was a Pharisee and cut off as all Pharisees were. Paul had to repent of his sins and believe and obey Jesus to be grafted back in.
Not all were grafted back in, but some were already, and any can be---if they don’t persist in disbelief.
Because it must have seem to the people that God cut off ALL Jews forever. Paul was explaining to GENTILES that they Jews were not all cut off .
No way, it is YOUR comments that I don’t understand sometimes.
You speak about Jesus and say he spoke a different gospel to the Jews when he walked the earth and then he changed his plan and then it will be all the Jews saved when he comes again; all that is not in the Bible.
The Jews who were saved, they were the lost sheep and the Jews who were cut off, they are the Jews that have to be grafted back in---that is EVERYONE, Jew or not, from the time of the crucifixion onward.
Again, when Jesus walked the earth, the lost sheep minus the cut off Jews were saved, and from that time forward---ALL JEWS are cut off and just like the Gentiles.
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God's Truth
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Jews were cut off. If you were a cut off Jew then you have to be grafted in.
And, since then, any person who claims to be a Jew, they still have to be grafted in, just like the Gentiles.
Why do you say ‘duh’? That doesn’t help.
God does NOT play favoritism.
You go against the scriptures that say God doesn’t play favoritism.
Jesus calls some of them the son of Satan.
The only people of God are those who have faith in Jesus.
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That is where debate comes into it. You give many scriptures too.
Let's debate the scriptures, just like Paul did.